Forum: General

Here is a summary of whats happening:

F-18 IN Block 2, F-16 IN, Mig-35, Rafale F-4, EF tranche 3 and Gripen IN are bidding for the massive contract where 126 jets will be ordered from the winning bidder. The IAF holds an option for 74 more aircraft and the whole deal could reach as far as 200 jets. However, due to recent break down in talks between India and France to upgrade the IAF 's mirage 2000 fleet due to high price quotes set by ze French and the delay of this upgrade program might push up the number of potential orders to over 220 or so. This is not clear as of yet. so far the F-18SH, F-16 Block 60, Rafale have been evaluated in India. IAF has asked LM and Boeing to do more development work on the APG-79 and APG-80 radars because both these radars do not have weather radar modes.

Mig-35 has begun weapons trails in Russia in preparations for IAF's weapon trials next year and by now should be undergoing flight evals in India. The SH will undergo weapons trials in Feb. Gripen IN has just begun testing new AESA don't know if they will bring it for flight evals in India, Rafale apparently brought the RBE-2 AESA to India for evals as well. Questions remain about the EF's new AESA and whether they will bring it for evals to india.

The Russian's say the mig-35 will begin full-scale production in late 2013 or early 2014 which means if it wins the first mrca. mig-35 wont arrive in India before 2015. IAF however wants the first mrca aircraft to land in India by late 2012 or mid-2013 at latest. This means the mig has little or no chance, the only reason it could win is for reasons of full-tot. but mig can be virtually ruled out.

Boeing held a meeting last week in India and said that they are offering the GE F 414 EPE engine for the Indian SH which increases the thrust per engine from 98KN to 118KN+ or 196 KN per aircraft to 236KN+, the same engine is also being offered for the LCA's mk-2 engine contest where the EJ2000 and GE F414 EPE will go head to head. EJ2000 is offering MATV however the thrust is 90KN just enough for the LCA mk-2 while Ge's F 414 EPE has a lot more thrust, but is also slightly heavier. the new GE engine reduces the fuel burn of the SH by 1%. Engine change can be done in less than 30mins and engines are left and right interchangeable. EJ2000 on the other hand boasts engine change in 45 mins. The EJ is also much more expensive with the engine costing over 10 million while the GE 414 comes for around half that. Boeing is also offering a 9-G superhornet unlike the USN's 7.5 g aircraft, this will require changes to the flight control system.

due to recent problems with Ze French and their un-willingness to budge on certain things the Rafale also can be virtually ruled out. f-16 with its age old existance can also be ruled out no matter how good it is, unless, the US offers full-tot, complete weapons and airframe customization including nuke. The f-18IN, Gripen IN and EF T-3 remain. the Gripen IN wont add much to our force levels when the LCA mk-2 will out perform it in every way by 2014, that puts the SH against the EF.

SH on any given day is a more multirole option and its new engine holds more promise of much more improved aerial performance and the price is not too bad either. Now if US gives full-tot and cuts down on the strings a bit, SH wins, it has the highest price to pounding ratio.

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Great update, Dokhla. I didn't realize Boeing had already pitched the EPE to India, but that makes sense.

yup, i didnt know either, its a new development, they announced it just last week. The new engine gives the SH a T/W ratio of well over 1 and puts to rest some of the thrust and performance deficiency issues related to the SH. Even if the SH wins, the same engine will go on board the LCA mk-2 and hence i am sure they will have to give full-tot on the engine, now comes the radar i am sure IAF doesnt mind if it doesnt get source codes but if there is no TOT on the radar, then its going to be a problem. US will have to clear full-tot in order to compete on a level playing field coz Rafale, mig-35 come with full-tot and IAF has a lot of commonality with French and Russian in terms of weapons, maintenance infrastructure etc. SH is my personal favorite, i hope it wins. Its good for Indo-US relations, besides joint ventures and partnerships that will come up with a US company winning will give lot of leads into the fastest growing defence market in the world. I am sure India will then slowly join into new weapons programs, ground, air and sea based.

All I can say about this is … I recently witnessed a “performance demo” from an UAE blk 60 and I was actually quite scared from some of the maneuvers he was pulling!

The blk 60’s and 52+ is going to kick a$$ and take names!

well i have no doubts about the Block 60 but air show maneuvers hardly matter, i have seen the SH pull incredible high aoa manuevers with a decent load of 2 drop tanks, 2 jsow, 2 aim-120, 2 Aim-9x and i am sure a Block 60 wont be able to do all that unless it gets an MATV. The Falcon' and mig-35's problem is that they are just modified versions of old aircraft. Though the Falon's payload flexibility far exceeds the mig-35, the Falcon is still a single engine aircraft and its come home probability incase of emergency is half that of a twin engine aircraft. The Sh's new engine promises T/W ratio of over well over 1 even with a high load and allows for easier take-offs in areas like Kashmir and Rajasthan where the temps in the winter can go below -50 and the desert heats up to over 50 in peak summers. Meeting Indian's terrain challenge itself is a very difficult feat.

Most dogfights take place at speeds between 200-500 kts, though you can merge at supersonic speeds the winner will be the aircraft than can turn on a dime and pull high aoa. the SH's ease of flight and training helps as well, the IAF was quite impressed with the SH's mature cockpit ergenomics, ease of flight, pitch and nose authority. offcourse the IAF was pleased with Falonc's agility as well. yet i hope we dont go for the Falcon or the mig, both old, we need newer aircraft and hence the SH, EF, Rafale and Gripen are better choices. but the price of rafale and EF is way too hihg we probably have spend more time and money integrating new weapons, better avionics and stuff like that the SH doens need too much cuztomization, it brings in lots of good off the shelf capability, this is gr8.

dokhla wrote:

well i have no doubts about the Block 60 but air show maneuver hardly matter

Sorry mate … this was a PERFORMANCE DEMO by LM, not an air show maneuvers.
I learned something new the other day and there is a BIG difference between the two!
I’ve been on the line for 30 years and seen some sh*t across the world … I seen A-10’s fly between shelters, Buccaneers low through the highlands … all made me cringe!
This dude in the blk 60 was absolutely SICK! Shocked

well i dont doubt that and the block 70 IN will be even better i am absolutly sure of that but will US give full-tot , we know the line in US is winding down and closing, the only way F-16IN has a chance if they give full tot , mass cuztomization, nuke delivery capability, source code customization. In terms of price, avionics, weapons flexibility etc. the Falcon is no doubt matching and exceeding all requirments but when it comes to stuff like TOT, we are uncertain, this is what is negative about the US contenders. besides at a later stage will US allow us to tweak the F-16IN super viper into something even better, stuff like changes to the airframe, offcourse this will be done with US involvement, IAF doesnt want any bitching at a later stage. by 2014 for instance the su-30mki will have AESA, smart skin sennsors, more composites developed in India, reducing weight and increasing aerodynamic performance, stealth coatings also developed in India, coz already our aircraft like Jaguars and mig-12 bisons are recieving stelath coatings that have reduced the rcs of the aircraft by 70%. Offcourse the falcon is much more advanced but when IAf feels like it wants to improve and make modifications we dont want much US resistance to these things. besides with Mr. Obama taking a anti nuke policy will we be able to deploy nuke bombs and missiles from the falcon or Super hornet. these are things that could cost the US this deal if they dont have room for maneuvering. so US has to postion it self very carefully here, if they dont they can forget about winning this deal.

dokhla wrote:

well i dont doubt that and the block 70 IN will be even better i am absolutly sure of that but will US give full-tot , we know the line in US is winding down and closing, the only way F-16IN has a chance if they give full tot , mass cuztomization, nuke delivery capability, source code customization. In terms of price, avionics, weapons flexibility etc. the Falcon is no doubt matching and exceeding all requirments but when it comes to stuff like TOT, we are uncertain, this is what is negative about the US contenders. besides at a later stage will US allow us to tweak the F-16IN super viper into something even better, stuff like changes to the airframe, offcourse this will be done with US involvement, IAF doesnt want any bitching at a later stage. by 2014 for instance the su-30mki will have AESA, smart skin sennsors, more composites developed in India, reducing weight and increasing aerodynamic performance, stealth coatings also developed in India, coz already our aircraft like Jaguars and mig-12 bisons are recieving stelath coatings that have reduced the rcs of the aircraft by 70%. Offcourse the falcon is much more advanced but when IAf feels like it wants to improve and make modifications we dont want much US resistance to these things. besides with Mr. Obama taking a anti nuke policy will we be able to deploy nuke bombs and missiles from the falcon or Super hornet. these are things that could cost the US this deal if they dont have room for maneuvering. so US has to postion it self very carefully here, if they dont they can forget about winning this deal.

Don't know Shrug

VarkVet wrote:

All I can say about this is … I recently witnessed a “performance demo” from an UAE blk 60 and I was actually quite scared from some of the maneuvers he was pulling!

The blk 60’s and 52+ is going to kick a$$ and take names!

Dying to see videos if available..

Dying to see videos if available..

Last edited by cywolf32 on Nov 07, 2009 - 01:20 PM; edited 2 times in total

Honestly, I think the F-16 gets a bad rap for being a single engine design. Engine technology and materials science have negated alot of problems associated with past issues. As is in most cases, acft mishaps are due more to pilot error than equipment malfunctions. It totally boils down to tech transfer and cost if you ask me.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=in+ ... ORM=V0VR2#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNTji0T1PTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Q68zTIpYg

true cost, tot and role/weapon flexbility will decide the winner.

Forum: General

Indian MRCA competition