Forum: F-22A Raptor

Something I still do not understand is the need to have a top speed of say M2 or 2.5 like the F-15.
I understand the faster, higher, further, but if the F-22 can supercruise at let's say m 1.5-1.6, under what circumstances the max speed would be used, considering that higher speeds would consume excessive fuel, possibly jeopardising the pilot returning to base. is it to evade SAMs or AAMs or a quick dash to launch an AAM. I have the impression it is a last resource thing.

No guys, I do not want a pdf with the classified mission planning to launch an attack to destroy Iran's underground nuclear facilities.

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It is advantageous to give your missile all the kinematic advantages you can at launch, therefore a higher launch speed is desirable. A supercruising aircraft can quickly accelarate to M2 for weapons release. The aircraft can then quickly dissengage to avoid any return fire.

A higher top speed enables a pilot to enter and leave the battle when he wants. A slower aircraft will not be able to intercept a much faster one.

What is really more important than absolute top speed is the rate of accelaration, climb and turn, these are the traditional attributes of the dogfighter aircraft.

Thanks Mark, I guess I was thinking more in relation to an air to air scenario.
Supercruise could be added as one of those qualities being made possible by a 5th generation fighter like the Raptor.
I wonder how common is it for a pilot to fly at high speeds, say Mach 1.5 unless it is dictated by mission planning.
As a side note, my understanding is that USAF f-15s are now limited to flying to a maximum speed of M1.5 to prevent them from falling apart.

Also it seems to me that unless your fighter force flies at the same speed, the slower planes would slow the package down.
The example of the USN EA-6B slowing down an F-18 package comes to mind. That is why the Growler will be aa much more suitable companion for the rest of the Force. I am thinking now on an f-22/ F-15 combo.

I think 4th generation aircraft would hardly ever make use of M1.5 speeds in combat. Typhoon and Raptor can and would do so to impart the greatest amount of kinetic energy before missile launch. F16's or F15's would not be able to keep up for long before they run out of fuel. The MiG31 Foxhound can make operational use of high Mach numbers and did so in the first Gulf War. Was it one of those that shot down a US Hornet? - can't remember.

Speed is Life

Mark, even the F-22 and Typhoon would not be able to keep up m1.5 long before burning excessive fuel. That would be extreme rate of fuel burning even if in Mil power cruise (after initial AB acceleration)? It will always come down to fuel management, even for the mighty Raptor.

Conceivably however, an F-15SE with 32k lb class power, plus 4 conformal AMRAAM and just 2x IR underwing could make a respectable supercruise after dropping the CL tank in combat scenario. Ditto for a conceivable F-16 AT/X/XL type under same 32k lb power.

Taking your pick, speculatively, the F-22 can super cruise anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes.

The F22 can make use of speeds up to Mach 2.34 I think with afterburner. That is an operationally useful top speed. The thing about the F22 is that it is able to maneouvre at high speed as opposed to just flying in a straight line.Whether the F22 is cruising at M0.85 like a 4th generation aircraft or supercruising at M1.6, the F22 can quickly accelarate to M2 for missile release. 4th generation aircraft with underwing pilons cannot accelarate so easily or quickly to their theoretical top speeds.

I read somewhere that the YF120-powered YF-23 hit 1.8 Mn in Supercruise.

The maximum supercruise speed for the F22 has been a subject of much speculation. Annecdotal evidence suggests that it can cruise at M1.78. I find the evidence about the Typhoon less convincing. All I know is that early versions demonstrated the ability to cruise at M1.3 or there abouts, however since then the aircraft has got heavier and less aeodynamicly streamlined with the introduction of the sniper pod. Evidence is quite scanty. I do remember hearing that it was flown at M1.5 in cruise without any weapons and maybe 50% fuel but I can't remember the details.

mark2002 wrote:

The MiG31 Foxhound can make operational use of high Mach numbers and did so in the first Gulf War. Was it one of those that shot down a US Hornet? - can't remember.

The IrAF had MiG-25s

Top end speed can always be useful for intercepting private jets built to do M1.6 with Bin Ladens Buddys inside!

http://www.saiqsst.com/

why!! Rolling Eyes

Thanks for the correction. Of course I should have said MiG25 rather than MiG31.

mark2002 wrote:

The maximum supercruise speed for the F22 has been a subject of much speculation. Annecdotal evidence suggests that it can cruise at M1.78. I find the evidence about the Typhoon less convincing. All I know is that early versions demonstrated the ability to cruise at M1.3 or there abouts, however since then the aircraft has got heavier and less aeodynamicly streamlined with the introduction of the sniper pod. Evidence is quite scanty. I do remember hearing that it was flown at M1.5 in cruise without any weapons and maybe 50% fuel but I can't remember the details.

I've seen anecdotal reports of M1.82(and allusions to higher speeds, though unsubstantiated).

We can speculate that under some circumstances it might be able to sustain even higher speeds ie with AMRAAM's expended and carrying only Sidewinders and with 50% fuel at 65k feet etc the Raptor might be able to sustain Mach X without afterburner, but that would be pure guesswork. One of the limiting factors is thermal damage from friction especially to the canopy. The Holy Grail of supercruise is to hit M2 without afterburner and that has been hinted at but never proved.

I bluntly refuse to believe they painstakingly developed the F-22, a marvel of engineering, and equipped it with a canopy that could not withstand Mach 2+ for a combat relevant amount of time.

That's like building the fastest formula one car in the world and giving the driver and the car a windshield made out of clear plastic canvas.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Need for speed