Forum: F-35 Lightning II

A laser beam doesn't stay coherent in the atmosphere for long distances due to dispersion, refraction, diffraction and attenuation. Many engineers are working furiously to try to get laser communications to work where you know the positions of the transmitter and receiver, but it is a difficult task once the distances increase because the atmosphere isn't homogeneous. For now, the best success is at extreme altitude where the air is thin or shooting laser comms out to satellites in geosynchronous orbit. Ladar has an additional drawback because it can be detected. Airplanes such as Rafale have laser detectors so they know when they are being painted by OLS-27, OLS-35 or a SAM targeting system.

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wrightwing wrote:

discofishing wrote:

That's what I was trying to get at. I think stealth is an amazing capability and was worth the investment. It'll be viable for a long time to come, but not forever. I'm not anti-F-35 or anti-F-22. I sure hope our own people are working on ways to detect stealth aircraft. The only way I could really see one being tracked is with the use of LADAR.

You have to know which way to point the LADAR for it to be effective.

It's been talked about that you could use low-frequency radars to detect stealth aircraft outside their RCS optimization and then use another technique (like LADAR or IRST) to get accurate position data once you have a rough idea of where they are.

throw in bad weather and a few hundred missiles coming your way with an electronic warfare package and oh uh, our pristine laboratory anti stealth linked network is having some bugs...

in modern warfare trying to win control of the skies from the ground via fixed, even mobile positions, from the defensive, is a lost game; like trying to roll that rock up a hill

If by stealth you mean ability to be undetected, I doubt that will go away, it may fluxuate in strength now and then, but never go away.

Radar stealth might become obsolete (though it's not immediately obvious how). In that case, we make new planes.

As a member of the United States Navy, I feel the need to say that the white "cracker jack" uniforms have been retired. Enlisted men now wear Khaki shirts with black pants, until E-7 of course, when the pants also become khaki. Only officers wear white now.

Quote:

Aub As a member of the United States Navy, I feel the need to say that the white "cracker jack" uniforms have been retired. Enlisted men now wear Khaki shirts with black pants

Thanks "Aub" I was wondering about that. Always good to hear from a member of the armed forces - welcome aboard! Smile

Quote:

PhillyGuythrow in bad weather and a few hundred missiles coming your way with an electronic warfare package and oh uh, our pristine laboratory anti stealth linked network is having some bugs...

Good point, a plan of attack rarely survives contact with enemy forces. Isn't that how legacy aircraft did it anyway? Use night and/or adverse weather to their advantage in times of war (within limits anyway).

Quote:

As a member of the United States Navy, I feel the need to say that the white "cracker jack" uniforms have been retired. Enlisted men now wear Khaki shirts with black pants, until E-7 of course, when the pants also become khaki. Only officers wear white now.

Daring to take this thread yet 1 more message OT,

Aub - are the new blue camo "bdu" working uniforms going to replace the khaki/black ? Or do they just replace the dungarees/blue shirts ? Back in 87-88 I remember the working uniforms were khaki for officers/chiefs/PO's and the dungaree/dixiecups for the rest...

Jetnerd

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 23, 2009 - 08:44 AM Posts: 97

Stealth - or more correctly LO management is not a static concept. It's been around as a solution set since 1912 when the first deliberately designed aircraft was coated in cellophane like plastic to reduce visibility (didn't help that it looked like a flying engine frame and you could see all the struts - and the fact that the early clear lucites sagged when raining)

If you look at LO its gone through some 4-5 manned generations in modern times (jet) and some similar scale of generation in unmanned assets - it evolves with the threat.

all that will happen is that any new capability to detect will spawn new solutions to counter it - it is not one all encompassing static capability but a suite of solutions.

the term gets abused as much as how RAM is perceived.

This answer is easy. The aircraft is a UAV but is capable of very high mach like the SR71 or very slow speed like the A-10. It is as stealthy as possible and also small to bring the detection factor down even more. Super maneuverable as well so between that and the hi-lo speed it can get away from most threats easily. And if it doesn't, then no pilot down. Now, the pilot is obviously back here but he's not sitting at a desk chair and screen like the pilot's currently manning MQ-1 and MQ-9's. He's in a simulator and virt. reality that gives him the sensation of being in the cockpit but no G. Maybe it can even go up, down, upside down, 360, whatever so he literally knows what attitude the UAV is in. Heck, you could have a whole crew, pilot, WSO, systems offcr., countermeasures offcr. running the sortie.
So basically, you have an A/C that is tiny, moves like a UFO, has a 'crew' like an AWACS, is carrying Super-Smart eWeapons(tm), probably also energy weapons and has no fear of being shot down.

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 23, 2009 - 08:44 AM Posts: 97

vegasdave901 wrote:

This answer is easy. The aircraft is a UAV but is capable of very high mach like the SR71 or very slow speed like the A-10. It is as stealthy as possible and also small to bring the detection factor down even more. Super maneuverable as well so between that and the hi-lo speed it can get away from most threats easily. And if it doesn't, then no pilot down. Now, the pilot is obviously back here but he's not sitting at a desk chair and screen like the pilot's currently manning MQ-1 and MQ-9's. He's in a simulator and virt. reality that gives him the sensation of being in the cockpit but no G. Maybe it can even go up, down, upside down, 360, whatever so he literally knows what attitude the UAV is in. Heck, you could have a whole crew, pilot, WSO, systems offcr., countermeasures offcr. running the sortie.
So basically, you have an A/C that is tiny, moves like a UFO, has a 'crew' like an AWACS, is carrying Super-Smart eWeapons(tm), probably also energy weapons and has no fear of being shot down.

speed is not the answer. there are trade offs with all capabilities, if you go high speed then you lift your visibility because you generate heat and thus traceable signature. the materials science issues still exist. heat transfer at hypersonic speed is still a huge problem.

considering that the development of hypersonic weapons systems is gathering pace (Aust/US/Japan) are all testing POC in australia, and that new sensor systems encompassing combinations of various bands across various spectrums, then everything is in flux and everything is changing.

the folly is to assume that there is an answer for all. each UAV for instance has 4-8 times the same number of people involved in its management as opposed to a manned system - and therein lies one of the limitations. Manned situational awareness is still superior to unmanned (let alone) hived systems. Its one reason why the Force "2025" construct is for a manned asset to act as hive manager.

so we're nowhere near the buck rogers scenarios yet.

it's why even the planning for the current tier 1 air forces is looking at complimentary systems even out to 2030/2035. again, refer to force 2025 concepts already established by US/Services/RAF/RAAF etc...

eg the sensor fusion and battlemanagement systems we are looking at with like minded allies are in the 2030 timeframe. UAV solutions are heavily tied into that - and no-one is making bold claims about how easy it is - far from it. In fact the US is probably slipping right now that the administration has cut some programs and directed the services to merge their existing programs (part of the direction for SecDef to accelerate and force Joint co-operations and save development monies). some of that direction directly impacts upon UK, Aust Canada etc....

unmanned hypersonics with parallel capability to extant systems are a decade off

machi wrote:

The advantage of stealth will come to an end about the same time Marines stop dressing in green.

Interesting discussion. Stealth won't last forever, no military advantage has done so since the beginning of History. It will end someday. 'till there, the US will take advantage of it.

The next step in stealth is Meta Material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_material
Negative index metamaterials
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_i ... amaterials

Stealth will always play a role, whether RCS, IR, terrian following or MK1 visual. Technologies will advance and sway from one side to the other, but the constant fear of getting caught is the prime driver. Stealth has always been here and always will in different forms.

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 23, 2009 - 08:44 AM Posts: 97

strykerxo wrote:

Stealth will always play a role, whether RCS, IR, terrian following or MK1 visual. Technologies will advance and sway from one side to the other, but the constant fear of getting caught is the prime driver. Stealth has always been here and always will in different forms.

Exactly - and thats what seems to be lost on a number of people when they aregue against the utility and/or benefit of LO management.

It's not a static concept and never has been. Treating it as such is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "it" is.

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

discofishing wrote:

That's what I was trying to get at. I think stealth is an amazing capability and was worth the investment. It'll be viable for a long time to come, but not forever. I'm not anti-F-35 or anti-F-22. I sure hope our own people are working on ways to detect stealth aircraft. The only way I could really see one being tracked is with the use of LADAR.

You have to know which way to point the LADAR for it to be effective.

It's been talked about that you could use low-frequency radars to detect stealth aircraft outside their RCS optimization and then use another technique (like LADAR or IRST) to get accurate position data once you have a rough idea of where they are.

Many of the UCAV's coming being developed right now, such as the X-47B, have broadband stealth. So it doesn't matter what frequency you're using to detect the aircraft, it's still going to be a pain in the a$$.

Low frequency radars would be effective against something like an F-117, but not with today's stealth. Certainly not with the stuff that's being tested at Skunk Works, Phantom Works, and Area 51.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

The day when stealth can no longer hide you