F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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LmRaptor
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 12:43 PM
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Enthusiast

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Sponsor
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Posted: May 26, 2012 - 2:45 PM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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imispgh
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 03:29 PM
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Newbie

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cobzz
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 03:37 PM
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Active Member

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One down one to go.  |
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Tinito_16
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 07:01 PM
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Forum Veteran

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Spudman, I just read the more recent GAO report you posted (the vast majority of it. It's not as doom and gloom as the one I posted, but it still has concerns about the program:
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JSF development will cost more and take longer to complete than reported to the Congress in April 2008, primarily because of contract cost overruns and extended time needed to complete flight testing. DOD is also significantly increasing annual procurement rates and plans to buy some aircraft sooner than reported last year. Total development costs are projected to increase between $2.4 billion and $7.4 billion and the schedule for completing system development extended from 1 to 3 years.
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Manufacturing of development test aircraft is taking more time, money, and effort than planned, but officials believe that they can still deliver the 9 remaining test aircraft by early 2010. The contractor has not yet demonstrated mature manufacturing processes, or an ability to produce at currently planned rates. It has taken steps to improve manufacturing; however, given the manufacturing challenges, DOD’s plan to increase procurement in the near term adds considerable risk and will be difficult to achieve.
DOD is procuring a substantial number of JSF aircraft using cost reimbursement contracts. Cost reimbursement contracts place most of the risk on the buyer—DOD in this case—who is liable to pay more than budgeted should labor, material, or other incurred costs be more than expected when the contract was signed.
JSF flight testing is still in its infancy and continues to experience flight testing delays. Nonetheless, DOD is making substantial investments before flight testing proves that the JSF will perform as expected. DOD may procure 273 aircraft costing an estimated $42 billion before completing flight testing.
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Total development costs are projected to increase between $2.4 billion and $7.4 billion and the schedule for completing system development to be extended from 1 to 3 years, according to estimates made in late 2008—one by the JSF Program Office and one by a joint team of Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD), Air Force, and Navy officials. Cost overruns on both the aircraft and engine contracts, delays in manufacturing test aircraft, and a need for a longer, more robust flight test program were the primary cost drivers. The joint team’s estimate is higher than the program office’s because it included costs for the alternate engine program directed by the Congress and used more conservative assumptions based on current and legacy aircraft experiences.
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After reducing test resources and activities to save money in 2007, the JSF Program Office developed a new test plan in the spring of 2008 that extended the development period by 1 year, better aligned test resources and availability dates, and lessened the overlap between development and operational testing. While improved, the new plan is still aggressive and has little room for error discovery, rework, and recovery from downtime should test assets be grounded or otherwise unavailable. The sheer complexity of the JSF program—with 22.9 million lines of software code8, three variants, and multi-mission development— suggests that the aircraft will encounter many unforeseen problems during flight testing requiring additional time in the schedule for rework. Given the complexity of the program, the joint estimating team noted that an additional 2 years beyond the recent 1 year extension may be needed to complete development.
The test plan relies heavily on a series of advanced and robust simulation labs and a flying test bed to verify aircraft and subsystem performance. Figure 3 shows that 83 percent of the aircraft’s capabilities are to be verified through labs, the flying test bed, and subject-matter analysis, while only 17 percent of test points are to be verified through flight testing. Program officials argue that their heavy investment in simulation labs will allow early risk reduction, thereby reducing the need for additional flight testing, controlling costs, and meeting the key milestones of the program’s aggressive test plan. However, while the JSF program’s simulation labs appear more prolific, integrated, and capable than the labs used in past aircraft programs, their ability to substitute for flight testing has not yet been demonstrated.
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Despite an improved test plan, JSF flight testing is still in its infancy. Only about 2 percent of its development flight testing had been completed as of November 2008. (...) Past programs have shown that many problems are not discovered until flight testing. As such, the program is likely to experience considerable cost growth in the future as it steps up its flight testing, discovers new problems, and makes the necessary technical and design corrections.
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Despite the nascency of the flight test program and subsequent flight testing delays, DOD is investing heavily in procuring JSF aircraft. Procuring aircraft before testing successfully demonstrates that the design is mature and that the weapon system will work as intended increases the likelihood of expensive design changes becoming necessary when production is underway. Also, systems already built and fielded may later require substantial modifications, further adding to costs. The uncertain environment as testing progresses is one reason why the prime contractor and DOD are using cost-reimbursable contracts until rather late in procurement.
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While the program must move forward, we continue to believe that the program’s concurrent development and production of the aircraft is extremely risky. By committing to procure large quantities of the aircraft before testing is complete and manufacturing processes are mature, DOD has significantly increased the risk of further compromising its return on investment—as well as delaying the delivery of critical capabilities to the warfighter. Furthermore, the program’s plan to procure large quantities of the aircraft using cost-reimbursement contracts—where uncertainties in contract performance do not permit costs to be estimated with sufficient accuracy to use a fixed-price contract—places additional financial risk on the government. Until the contractor demonstrates that it can produce aircraft in a timely and efficient manner, DOD cannot fully understand future funding requirements. DOD needs to ensure that the prime contractor can meet expected development and production expectations. At a minimum, the contractor needs to develop a detailed plan demonstrating how it can successfully meet program development and production goals in the near future within cost and schedule parameters. As such, in our March 2009 report, we recommended that Secretary of Defense direct the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics to report to congressional defense committees explaining the risks associated with using cost-reimbursable contracts as compared to fixed price contracts for JSF’s production quantities, the program’s strategy for managing those risks, and plans for transitioning to fixed-price contracts for production. DOD agreed with our recommendation. With an improved contracting framework and a more reasoned look to the future, the JSF program can more effectively meet DOD and warfighter needs in a constrained budget environment.
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_________________ "Like the coldest winter chill, heaven beside you...hell within" Alice In Chains
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SpudmanWP
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 08:31 PM
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The facts are that the JET report was out last year and was cited in the GAO report in March and May.
It is not new information and if a congressman did not know of it before voting on the F-22 funding, then he did not do his homework.
Without teh Report itelf, we cannot get the true meaning of "2 year delay" re: FRP. |
_________________ "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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fretmarks
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 10:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 01, 2004 - 08:55 AM
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SpudmanWP wrote:
The facts are that the JET report was out last year and was cited in the GAO report in March and May.
It is not new information and if a congressman did not know of it before voting on the F-22 funding, then he did not do his homework.
Without teh Report itelf, we cannot get the true meaning of "2 year delay" re: FRP.
perhaps that's true. but the same can also be said to those who were against the raptor. SecDEAF (deliberately misspelled), CSAF, USAF Sec and even the PUSA himself. |
_________________ Austin 1, Fox 3!
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geogen
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Posted: Jul 26, 2009 - 11:24 PM
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Tinito thanks for highlighting some of the more relevant content from report. At this point however, it's just getting so redundant with each succeeding assessment, that it will either come down to Congress finally now 'Hearing it... and comprehending it', or not. Why? They need to then ask the hard questions (and demand estimates) as to how sustainable and costly the program would be under various contingencies such as scaled back and delayed orders. The GAO can make the assessment side of things, yet it must be the Congress IMHO, which ultimately defines the political end of such a 'geo-political and Military-Industrial' dream acquisition project conceived in the late 90s bubble era. Very, very bold and serious assessments, calculations and decisions must be made like yesterday, before potentially systemic, devastating risk is materialized w/ major strategic consequences.
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While the program must move forward...the contractor needs to develop a detailed plan demonstrating how it can successfully meet program development and production goals
All together now: *Sigh...*
Yes, SM...
Perhaps we can all agree that Congress is most at fault from ignorance (by default). Some have been trying to warn and alert Congress to no avail, leading to where we stand now. Very unfortunate.
LM did not help, with the apparent utmost interest not to threaten, or 'out-compete' JSF. Perhaps to their detriment or not, will be the interesting evolution to watch. There could a reasoned scenario where substantially fewer F-35s are produced over time, yet profits per unit increase to a more advantageous 'net-wash' situation for LM anyway. In a way, not entirely dislike the manner in which Gasoline inventories and production affect Refiners' interests and bottom line. |
_________________ The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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Prinz_Eugn
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Posted: Jul 27, 2009 - 12:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 03, 2008 - 04:35 AM
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| Congress is hardly an unbiased body, it doesn't surprise me at all that programs try to make themselves seem more secure than they really are. It's unfortunate, but telling the truth about how risky something is going to be and how malleable budgets really are is a dangerous thing, even for good programs. |
_________________ "A visitor from Mars could easily pick out the civilized nations. They have the best implements of war."
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Tinito_16
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Posted: Jul 27, 2009 - 12:46 AM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 31, 2007 - 10:46 PM
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LM did not help, with the apparent utmost interest not to threaten, or 'out-compete' JSF. Perhaps to their detriment or not, will be the interesting evolution to watch. There could a reasoned scenario where substantially fewer F-35s are produced over time, yet profits per unit increase to a more advantageous 'net-wash' situation for LM anyway. In a way, not entirely dislike the manner in which Gasoline inventories and production affect Refiners' interests and bottom line.
Remember that this is the biggest and most expensive (overall) military contract ever. It made no sense for LM to lobby hard for more F-22's when they're already making a killing with the F-35. This is in no way a criticism of the a/c itself, as I believe that once testing really gets underway and the bugs are found and worked out, the plane will be very good A2G and excellent A2A. It's a criticism of the management of the program, who have made the dollar numbers balloon to ridiculous amounts. |
_________________ "Like the coldest winter chill, heaven beside you...hell within" Alice In Chains
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spazsinbad
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Posted: Jul 31, 2009 - 12:22 AM
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Pentagon Reassessing F-35 Cost Estimates Jul 30, 2009 By Graham Warwick
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... e=Pentagon Reassessing F-35 Cost Estimates
FORT WORTH, Texas — Lockheed Martin briefed U.S. Defense Department cost estimators July 29 as they reassess projections for the F-35 amid concerns that continued disagreement between higher independent and lower program office development cost figures could spell trouble for the Joint Strike Fighter.
Officials from the Pentagon’s Office of Program Analysis & Evaluation, Cost Analysis Improvement Group and Joint Estimating Team (JET) were to be briefed on progress with the development program July 29 at Lockheed’s plant here, F-35 Program General Manager Dan Crowley said at the July 28 rollout of the first U.S. Navy F-35C variant.
The previous JET report estimated development would cost an additional $5 billion and take two more years to complete than estimated by the Joint Program Office (JPO) in 2008. The team cited engineering destaffing, manufacturing span times, software development and flight-test productivity as drivers of expected cost and schedule growth.
Because of delays in flying test aircraft, JSF Program Executive Officer Brig. Gen. David Heinz does not expect the updated assessment to change the JET estimate by much. But Crowley hopes to convince the independent estimators that destaffing, manufacturing and software is on track to deliver the JPO’s lower projections.
“The JET has been tasked with updating its assessment in September,” Heinz says. “Without significant flight-testing, I do not expect a major revision.”
While it has been budgeting F-35 development at the lower cost estimated by the JPO, for fiscal 2010 the Pentagon opted for the JET’s higher estimate and added $480 million to the budget to cover projected cost growth in flight-test.
This raises the specter of a major cost jump for the development program, and potential cuts to aircraft procurement numbers, if the Pentagon abandons the JPO estimate and embraces the JET projections.
Crowley continues to hope the Pentagon and Congress will give the JSF program another year or two to prove its projected improvements in flight-test productivity over legacy fighter development efforts.
With 99 percent of drawings released for all three variants, engineering destaffing is “following a profile close to predictions,” he says, with the numbers working on the program expected to be cut from 4,000 to around 2,000 by year’s end.
Flight-test aircraft are between two and four months behind schedule, “but we are seeing rapid reductions in span times” as it begins assembling the first low-rate initial production aircraft, he says.
While the JET assessment expected growth in the amount of software needed and doubted the industry team could meet its software productivity targets, Crowley says software content is stable and productivity is beating estimates.
With only around 100 of a planned 5,000 development sorties expected to be accumulated by year’s end, flight-testing remains the biggest cost and schedule challenge. “It’s still difficult to estimate,” Heinz says.
Crowley says the team will not have enough data to support its flight-test productivity projections until it has completed 10 percent of planned sorties, expected late in 2010. “It’s too early to prove them wrong,” he says. |
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spazsinbad
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Posted: Jul 31, 2009 - 01:40 AM
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Tinito_16
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Posted: Jul 31, 2009 - 02:37 AM
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| Very informative article. I myself had doubts Time's figures were accurate. |
_________________ "Like the coldest winter chill, heaven beside you...hell within" Alice In Chains
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geogen
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Posted: Jul 31, 2009 - 06:31 AM
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Perfectly timed LM 'Debrief' to US DoD (July 29). About 72 hrs shy of when they SHOULD have debriefed relevant U.S. Congressional members first, for one thing.. Cough.
But perhaps 'Legacy' is not out of the question now.. Some USAF Gens are stepping up and going 'platform neutral'. Maybe U.S. Congress will give JPO just one more year to 'Prove' the critical analysis and deductive reasoning wrong.. before making bold, decisive, US strategic Airpower recapitalization modifications?
With regards to LRIP F-35 FMS however.. I don't see those 'fixed-contracts' being re-negotiated too much higher as they will by definition need to be competitive, or substantially risk endangerment to the Program?
USAF buys could help offset any cost differentials? |
_________________ The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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