Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

ELP is you want to make a fool of yourself read more carefully post you respond to.

-DA

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Quote:

It's was the tactics and planning that killed people.

That too. You both are right, in a sense: If we were going to use the Humvees we should've used different tactics, and if we were going to use the same tactics we should not have used the Humvees.

elp wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

Also ELP, what vehicle do you think the Army would have taken to WWIII? Galactic stupidity is you grabbing for straws trying to stay relevant in a discussion that's over your head. Armoring any vehicle is not the solution. In fact it hardly mattered with regard to the answer. And it's laughable that you criticize the Stryker and it's RPG cages. If you did your research you would know that's how you protect against the kind of HEAT warheads RPGs use on light weight ICVs. Take a look at Israel.

-DA

Yet again the Army can't remember #$%@. WWII? Yeah that is highly relevant. Laughing

The Armys problems are the Armys problems. It is called leadership. Since you want the WWII reference...what we will never see is a Patton. Instead all we get are mostly ticket punchers sliding through their career getting merit badges and a zero defect culture... what a way to make a 4 star.

Tell me. How many photos of the Stryker throughout its whole program before OIF had the cage on them? This was a last ditch effort by morons that didn't think it would ever go up against RPGs.. Duh ... and Stupid.

At least if you are going to bring anti F-22 arguments to the table from an Army perspective please quote Col Hackworth. Someone who won a stack of medals in real combat. And yeah.... he believed in the Can't Remember %$#@ syndrome of the Army. He also made great statements on a lot of post cold war stuff. In a nutshell stating that the Army needed serious reformation. Yet to be seen. Focusing on a dirt war only scenario doesn't qualify for all of the reformation that is needed.

WWIII

DarthAmerica wrote:

For the benefit of those trying to learn, while the USAF has it's own budget. The jointness of our DoD means that procurement in one branch can affect others. For instance, USAF lust for F-22s has hurt their ISR, tanker and transport capability. What that means for a warfighter is that an IED will go off that might have been previously observed being put in place by a UAS. It means that a unit might have to stay in country longer due to shortages of air lift assets. It means that the CAS support you thought you had is not available because there are no tankers available to fuel the loitering fuel sucking manned fighters that have to deliver ordinance.

-DA

Mostly very true. And it will continue down that path to ruin by basing hard decisions on a jet fighter with only 2 percent of its flight testing done all while not knowing what it will really cost.

Yeah, I call that fixing a problem. Not. Meanwhile, a brand new F-16 can get it done cheaper. And well for its slow speed—USAF can re-SLEP A-10s many times long after the last B-52 is put away. Want a real warrior for Operations: USELESS DIRT? Try the OV-10. Bringing an A-10 and OV-10 back into production is much more useful for those people that are on the dead end road to ruin thinking that pacifying some third world dirt insurgent actually keeps America safe. Good luck with that theory while the bills keep stacking up.

Tinito_16 wrote:

Quote:

It's was the tactics and planning that killed people.

That too. You both are right, in a sense: If we were going to use the Humvees we should've used different tactics, and if we were going to use the same tactics we should not have used the Humvees.

Brute force and hiding under armor does not work in these situations Tinito. The Russians went into A-Stan with more men, firepower and far more liberal ROE which included chemical weapons and lost.

It's not about tech. It's about people and methods.

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

ELP is you want to make a fool of yourself read more carefully post you respond to.

-DA

Hey thanks !!!!! Laughing

THIS DISCUSSION IS CROSSING THE LINE. AMERICANS DIED IN THE LINE OF DUTY AND INTERSERVICE RIVALRIES DON'T MEAN A DAMN THING WHEN IT COMES TO THAT FACT. This war was mismanaged from the top down and that has no bearing on the men fighting it. To say that the Army doesn't remember sh*t is a misnomer. To call into question the intelligence of people that serve is also inexcusable as well as to call the effort that they died in anything but noble. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES GENTLEMEN. I'm the most gung-ho, Semper Fi individual walking and its funny that I'm even attempting to play the voice of reason but all sides...STAND DOWN.

DarthAmerica wrote:

Tinito_16 wrote:

Quote:

It's was the tactics and planning that killed people.

That too. You both are right, in a sense: If we were going to use the Humvees we should've used different tactics, and if we were going to use the same tactics we should not have used the Humvees.

Brute force and hiding under armor does not work in these situations Tinito. The Russians went into A-Stan with more men, firepower and far more liberal ROE which included chemical weapons and lost.

It's not about tech. It's about people and methods.

-DA

Which ignores the fact about sending Humvees into threats and getting people killed. Yeah, I'd say that is about people.

ELP,

You're embarrassing yourself. Seriously. It's been discussed many times why upgraded legacy fighters are not the answer. I'm starting to wonder why you are an editor here. You don't even grasp the most basic doctrine or operational requirements/concepts. It's ok to disagree but to do so with your level of conviction and sarcasm and still be wrong is incredible. People inside and experienced can see you a mile away as a novice.

-DA

-DA

solomon wrote:

THIS DISCUSSION IS CROSSING THE LINE. AMERICANS DIED IN THE LINE OF DUTY AND INTERSERVICE RIVALRIES DON'T MEAN A DAMN THING WHEN IT COMES TO THAT FACT. This war was mismanaged from the top down and that has no bearing on the men fighting it. To say that the Army doesn't remember sh*t is a misnomer. To call into question the intelligence of people that serve is also inexcusable as well as to call the effort that they died in anything but noble. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES GENTLEMEN. I'm the most gung-ho, Semper Fi individual walking and its funny that I'm even attempting to play the voice of reason but all sides...STAND DOWN.

Negative Ghostridner on the fly-by.

No one here is questioning bravery and individual sacrifice. What we are questioning is stupid leadership from the top that too often gets a free pass.

For example, stating that one services plan takes away from another service. That has some severe limits.

"We are short of helicopters... yet two services put their head in the sand and spent billions on the V-22"

I don't hear anyone crying. of how the civil war ironclad known as the Zumwalt class destroyer... or the corvette with a destroyer price tag known as the Littoral Combat Gip ..... is taking away money from the ground troops.... it would help if there was as a start, some consistency.

elp wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

Tinito_16 wrote:

Quote:

It's was the tactics and planning that killed people.

That too. You both are right, in a sense: If we were going to use the Humvees we should've used different tactics, and if we were going to use the same tactics we should not have used the Humvees.

Brute force and hiding under armor does not work in these situations Tinito. The Russians went into A-Stan with more men, firepower and far more liberal ROE which included chemical weapons and lost.

It's not about tech. It's about people and methods.

-DA

Which ignores the fact about sending Humvees into threats and getting people killed. Yeah, I'd say that is about people.

Again, your stubborn ignorance is obvious. I just told you I've seen Abrams blown through the air by these people. You cannot add enough armor to any vehicle to make it safe in these environments. Needing the armor in the first place is a sign that you are LOSING. Think about why before you answer. Or ask me questions about why.

-DA

elp wrote:

solomon wrote:

THIS DISCUSSION IS CROSSING THE LINE. AMERICANS DIED IN THE LINE OF DUTY AND INTERSERVICE RIVALRIES DON'T MEAN A DAMN THING WHEN IT COMES TO THAT FACT. This war was mismanaged from the top down and that has no bearing on the men fighting it. To say that the Army doesn't remember sh*t is a misnomer. To call into question the intelligence of people that serve is also inexcusable as well as to call the effort that they died in anything but noble. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES GENTLEMEN. I'm the most gung-ho, Semper Fi individual walking and its funny that I'm even attempting to play the voice of reason but all sides...STAND DOWN.

Negative Ghostridner on the fly-by.

No one here is questioning bravery and individual sacrifice. What we are questioning is stupid leadership from the top that too often gets a free pass.

For example, stating that one services plan takes away from another service. That has some severe limits.

"We are short of helicopters... yet two services put their head in the sand and spent billions on the V-22"

I don't hear anyone crying. of how the civil war ironclad known as the Zumwalt class destroyer... or the corvette with a destroyer price tag known as the Littoral Combat Gip ..... is taking away money from the ground troops.... it would help if there was as a start, some consistency.

Thats probably because this is a thread about F-22's!!!!!!!!!!

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

ELP,

You're embarrassing yourself. Seriously. It's been discussed many times why upgraded legacy fighters are not the answer. I'm starting to wonder why you are an editor here. You don't even grasp the most basic doctrine or operational requirements/concepts. It's ok to disagree but to do so with your level of conviction and sarcasm and still be wrong is incredible. People inside and experienced can see you a mile away as a novice.

-DA

-DA

Yeah.... keep up with the discredit line when you don't like the argument. There is a winning play.

The fact is that once the F-22 has done its work against high end threats, any legacy can bomb from up high with cheap sub 4 meter CEP weapons and tear out the heart of an enemy. "I can touch you but you can't touch me"

After those medium air defense threats have been plinked like so many fish in a barrel, then even less sophisticated aircraft can fly. Low tech and threat adverse drones.

Failing to realize this one is just stupid. Claiming that the F-35 is somehow an "affordable" solution at this time with no proof to back it up and placing this as the primary saving plan for all our tacair problems, is stupid beyond belief. It may be the solution. But at this time we don't know. And neither does Gates claiming we will have hundreds of these by date X and that will fix everything. Blue sky marketing.

Lesson about Armor on 4GW battlefields...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSoGCuGH-V4

...any questions?

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

Thats probably because this is a thread about F-22's!!!!!!!!!!

-DA

Yeah. Keep up the simple simon argument that the F-22 is taking money away from the troops. Some that are gullible may even believe that sad argument.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Vote in the Senate today for 1.75 Billion F-22