Forum: General

Hi, My cousin was First Lieutenant Steve Vick, who was killed 20 years ago this past Sunday (21 Nov, 1984) in Spain. The 20 year anniversary of this brought back some questions concerning <a href="f-16_fighting_falcon_airframe-1289.html">the crash</a>. We were told that there were two witnesses on the ground...one said it caught fire and then crashed...the other said it exploded before it crashed. There was another comment that he tried to eject at the instant it hit the ground. Does the Air Force make the final crash report public in anyway? If so, how would I be able to find this out?

Steve was stationed at Luke AFB until Aug. '84 when he was transferred to Spain. By remote chance would anyone on here remember him?

Thanks in advance!

Larry Sanders

F-16.net Sponsor

You will find that if you don't have a need to know, the Air Force will not release a mishap report. It would be even more difficult for a civilian to obtain that info. I hope this helped, even though I know it was not the answer you wanted.

TC, not quite accurate. You can get the facts section, and the legal conclusion. The parts involving analysis and remains are not releasable as they may contain either private information or conjecture. I have PMed alisonsandmindysdad with some info on what to do. In the case of a loved one lost I can understand the curiosity...

btw- the discrepancy between witness statements is quite normal. Eyewitnesses are among the least credible sources of info. It is rare that someone can watch an event and provide accurate information on it. That is why mishap review boards study the evidence, just like on the TV shows...

Kevin

Thanks Kevin for the reply and for the PM. I'll order the report after this holiday weekend. I know my aunt and uncle received a report after the accident. I asked to look at it back then, but they weren't all that enthused about it. Realizing that it was personal to them I never asked again. Quite a few of Steve's and my friends from high school still ask me just what happened and I haven't been able to tell them anything other than repeating the rumors.

I have a few pics of Steve from when he was at Luke AFB standing next to some F-16s. They were probably taken in late '83 or early '84. Would they be of interest to anyone on this site if I were to submit them for posting?

Thanks again for the info. I'll post back on what I find.

Larry

What Kevin says is correct. These reports are published, but only the official part. These reports are called AIB (Accident Investigation Board) reports. They can be consulted online, but only from 1996 onwards.

Greets,

Yes, that part is available, but usually doesn't say much more than the very basics of the report, and their conclusion as to the cause (as Kevin said). Anything more would be harder to obtain, as I said before, only those with a need to know would be privy. For obvious reasons, any classified information (and there is always bound to be some with a military a/c) is deleted from the small amount of info you may see. Sorry if I sounded misleading before.

I just wanted to say thanks to those that have sent PMs and given me info here. This means a lot to me. I live and work very close to Hill AFB in Utah, so I get to see F-16s daily. Brings back memories of Steve every time I see one...good memories that is.

I'll keep you posted on what I find...

I have attached a couple of pics of Steven. I realize this post is older than dirt, but thought someone might recognize him or remember him. The pics were taken in late '83 or early '84 at Luke AFB.

I enjoy this site. Thanks!

Larry Sanders - Steven's cousin.

Did you ever get the answers you were looking for?

This website:

http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/index.html

does not go back as far as you need, but this information is public and you should be able to find the same for your request.

I have watched this forum for some time but kept my distance...after 24 years flying the Viper I have been amused, shocked, and occasionally dismayed at what I have read here...but after reading this post I could wait no longer to chime in.

I was at Bardenas gunnery range in northern Spain acting as range officer when your cousin was reported missing...we called on the radio intermittently for hours till we got the word from TJ that he had crashed. It was a long ride back to TJ that evening. I do not recall the safety report (SIB) but could not quote it if I did. The words written by others here are mostly correct...you can get a copy of the AIB (we call the legal board) as it is releasable to the public and required to be briefed to the family. But no one should ascribe nefarious purposes to the SIB process. The SIB is controlled because they want witnesses to feel free to give info that may prevent future accidents (a noble cause). Releasing this info endangers that confidence. The AIB is legally bound to describe the official causes and uses SIB info and should be sufficient to answer your concerns. There was, and is, nothing to hide...

The AF is not made up of evil people all trying to cover up dirty secrets, alien landings, or other conspiracies. Sometimes I wish the AF could get its collective s... together well enough to have a conspiracy.

I am truly sorry about your loss...Steve was the first of many acquaintances I knew who have found such a fate and it has not become easier with each one. I have disturbing remembrances of a certain lunch with another friend who did not return from the range that afternoon and all I can remember when I visit that restaurant is being pissed he stole some of my french fries. That's what sticks in your mind.

A brief note on eye witnesses...frequently F-16s are described as on fire prior to crashes. Often when pulling hard to avoid the ground the strakes create condensation in the vortices (we call them smoking strakes as you probably have seen in videos or demos). To the uninformed this can look like the jet is on fire. Another phenomenon is jet noise...the engine noise is much less nose on (particularly at idle) and many have described the lack of engine noise as a failed engine. The T-bird crash at Mountain Home is an example where witnesses said the engine failed...never mind going to idle as you pull over the top is standard practice...you still need enough room to finish the split S. These are just a few examples of flawed eyewitness reports I am aware of.

I hope you find the closure you seek...JB

We added one of the pictures to our 'in memoriam' section:
http://www.f-16.net/inmemoriam_tribute24.html

Greets,

AFI 91-204 (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI91-204.pdf) has a provision for release of findings of historical safety reports. Para 3.7.3.3 states the following: "AF/SE or AFSC/CD may release the findings of a Safety Board, contained in historical safety reports prepared IAW DODI 6055.07 (or its predecessors), provided no national defense or safety interest exists. For the purpose of this provision, historical reports shall be defined as those concerning mishaps more than 25 years old. (Note: Safety Reports on pre-1956 mishaps are not protected by the safety privilege and are stored at the Air Force Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB.)". I'm not familiar with the request process or how successful it might be.

As mentioned in earlier posts, the AIB produces a releasable report. AFI-91-204 also mentions how to obtain it in para. 3.7.3.2 as follows: "Responding to Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests under Title 5, United States Code, section 552. Send FOIA requests for all safety reports to AFSC/JA (Attachment 2)."

alisonsandmindysdad

I hope that you requested the AIB report from the Air Force Safety Office, and that you received it.

Despite a number of responses here that might suggest otherwise, the AIB should be able to tell you pretty much all you need to know. I was in a similar situation a few years back when i wanted to find out what had happened to a close friend in 1986. The Air Force sent me the releasable portions of the mishap report (about 50 pages, I would guess) and it described in great detail what had happened and why.

Despite spelling out in detail the horrific last moments of his life, it was paradoxically a very comforting document to read because it answered questions that had festered for decades.

I hope that you experience the same sort of positive outcome that I did.

Cheers

Steve

I should add the the report contained the name of his wingman that day (it was in a tab at the end that contained the forms he had signed before stepping to the jet). Using that information, I managed to track down his fellow pilot and ask him for additional information - he was more than happy to provide it.

So, it goes to show that asking for the report, if you have not already, is by no means a futile affair.

Forum: General

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