Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

The president seems to me, doesnt care to much for our military supremacy. Now that some patriots from Congress have supported extension of the Raptor our "commander in chief" -once again- demonstrates his "true" love for this country by threatening to veto the Congress last stand to save our Raptor.

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This is one of the few things I disagree with Obama. I can understand where he's coming from though. We practically have no money, and we aren't fighting conventional wars. I propose conserving the tooling so that perhaps we can restart the line later on.

Tinito_16 wrote:

This is one of the few things I disagree with Obama. I can understand where he's coming from though. We practically have no money, and we aren't fighting conventional wars. I propose conserving the tooling so that perhaps we can restart the line later on.

But what about all the talk of "preserving American jobs"? He wants to kill the Raptor program to save a few billion only to turn around and spend it on unemployment and increased maintenance costs on OLD F-15s!?! or increased F-35 production in the years to come?
WTF

If people are worried about the cost of Raptors today, they sure won't like it in 10 years. Look at how much more expensive Eagles are today versus what they were in the 80s or 90s?

Where does any of this make sense? Shrug

Anyone heard the mechanic term "Pay me now, or Pay me later?" I'll guarantee that paying me later will cost more in the long run if it doesn't get someone killed or hurt!

How many people are we going to kill with 'tired iron' over the next 10-15 years? Do you really save any money keeping an old fighters flying 40 years? I don't care how many 'upgrades' you make to the Radar, avionics, cockpits, or engines; point of the matter is that aluminum is going to be WAY beyond it's design life. (Much like the current USAF fighter engines are WAY beyond their lives too!) These aren't KC-135s or B-52s that tool around the skies for 60 or 70 years; they're fighters that start to age as soon as the G's set in.

My Two Cents

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

Yeah, I feel ya. Everything seems to get expensive with time... But the thing is we're borderline broke. But I think we should buy more F-22's instead of F-35's because we're going to buy the F-35 anyway. It makes no sense to cut the program now, when it is mature and the bugs have been for the most part worked out.

Quote:

How many people are we going to kill with 'tired iron' over the next 10-15 years? Do you really save any money keeping an old fighters flying 40 years? I don't care how many 'upgrades' you make to the Radar, avionics, cockpits, or engines; point of the matter is that aluminum is going to be WAY beyond it's design life. (Much like the current USAF fighter engines are WAY beyond their lives too!) These aren't KC-135s or B-52s that tool around the skies for 60 or 70 years; they're fighters that start to age as soon as the G's set in.

Tell that to our friend DA. He seems to think otherwise...

From one of the unemployed masses...

keep the jobs, we WILL need replacement aircraft way too soon. Might as well be Raptors until the F-35s go full tilt productionwise. Better than LOSING more jobs, like we have been losing still since the previous administration.

I know it really stinks that the production line is being halted, but as others have said, we've got bigger fish to fry right now. We're trying hard to pull out of this recession. Plus, we're fighting two wars right now, neither of which involve AA combat. Right now, if we're putting money into anything defense related, it needs to go to what the troops need in OEF and OIF.

Even if the PRK or Iran situations should spark up, we still have resources and a plan.

Tinito_16 wrote:

This is one of the few things I disagree with Obama. I can understand where he's coming from though. We practically have no money...

I have around $880 billion things I disagree with the man on. We're broke, but that hasn't kept us from spending more money in a "stimulus" bill (which has done NOTHING to stimulate the economy, or even slow the bleeding) than the government has ever spent at any one time in history. The massive 2000 page bill was passed within 24 hrs of its proposal (I'm sure he and every congressman who voted for it read every page, but hey, it's only a trillion dollars...why should they be expected to vote responsibly.) And even that wasn't enough...his proposed budget combined with the stimulus plans to spend more money than has been spent by every president before him combined. Read that last line again: his proposed budget combined with the stimulus plans to spend more money than has been spent by every president before him combined.

The point is, the man has no problem spending money...none at all. I'm sure he actually likes debt, as it offers him an excuse to tax the rich and redistribute their wealth. However, he's wise where he chooses to spend his money from a political self-preservation standpoint. He will give you money, as long as you are part of a social program. This way, you become dependent on the social program and will vote for any politician who votes to preserve it...which of course he and the democrats are famous for.

The irony of this (and in an attempt to get back on-topic) is that it was not social programs that got us out of the Great Depression, it was the massive military spending WWII brought on that got us out of it. The reason for this is that not only does military spending create jobs (AMERICAN jobs), but it also creates technology, which while often designed for military purposes, has numerous civil benefits which create jobs and increase efficiency. Spending money on social programs does none of this. It does not create jobs (except government jobs), and it does not increase technology. All it does is drive up the costs for everyone, because once people find out the government is paying the bill, they can charge more than the civil market will support thanks to the government’s deep pockets.

My point being, every time you hear this man trumpet how much more money we need to spend on social programs such as health care while saying we need to cut “wasteful” defense spending, it should make you think for a little bit. Especially when you consider that as a percentage of GDP, our country spends less than 1/3 of the amount on the DoD that we spent under Kennedy…we’re at our lowest point in nearly 70 years, yet this man still thinks it’s too much. On the other hand, social programs now account for well over half of our governments spending…more than at any other point in our nation’s history, and the rate of growth is still ACCELERATING! But apparently it’s still not enough…we need to sacrifice the military, sacrifice the F-22, sacrifice the ABL, sacrifice the LCS, sacrifice a number of projects that create jobs and keep this country safe, but we need to spend MORE on social programs…whatever.

Sorry for the rant, just my Two Cents

Yup,
Someone better pull their head out of their a$$ because National Security (even in a dying economy) should always be priority one!
Everyone has an opinion … and I think we put too many eggs in one basket with STEALTH manned fighters!
Build me bigger, badder, and faster UAV’s instead! (Plus brand new blk 52+, 60 Vipers) hell of a lot cheaper! Furthermore I don’t think the next “Great War” is going to be won by how covertly we can slide a bomb through a window, then down an air shaft, only to blow up a dictator?
Remember, if sh*t hits the fan we still have the weapons for a backyard light show!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv09zUQ50f0

I feel sorry for the US citizens with 'the messiah' at the helm, the guys a nieve, wishfull thinking disaster and whats worse it the way the majority of the worlds media fawn over him in the most unobjective manner possible.

You know, I'm just gonna see how things go. I don't think he'll end up a bad president. Certainly not as bad as Bush jr.

But anyhow, you're right. If the gov. would look at past crisis like the Great Depression they'd see that defense spending brought about a marked turnaround in the economy. As a matter of fact, you could argue that MORE defense spending would actually help the economy a hell of a lot more than social programs. You'd create jobs, stimulate the development of new technology, and at the same time strengthen our armed forces. The thing about it is (I think), that defense spending creates jobs that dispropportionally target technically skilled workers. And obviously Obama wants to get EVERYONE a job. So I think the correct course would be about 30% defense spending (instead of cutting it, spending a bit more) and 70% social programs, in a stimulus bill. That way some of the money will go towards defense (the military and especially the AF IS having a crisis with old hardware!), instead of like 50% going to the banks which got us in this mess and the other half basically, randomly being spent. I like Obama's thinking but his excecution so far has been a bit disappointing. BUT, let's give the man a chance. Let's see where we are six months from now...

Tinito_16 wrote:

You know, I'm just gonna see how things go. I don't think he'll end up a bad president. Certainly not as bad as Bush jr.

Perhaps i'm heading abit OT but I find it hard (from this side of the big pond) to find Mr Bush a 'bad' president. He looked after US interests and security extremely well since 9/11 (I don't believe the fact the hijackers weren't caught is all down to Bushs fault), he removed one of the worst brutal dictatorships on the planet that had been a constant threat to middle east security. (I don't by the BS that the mid east is now more volitile as some anti Bush types claim)
Many forget the US president is there to look after US interests and not there to become some kind of celebrity in a popularity contest with the world as many seem to the job of a president is as can be witnessed from the vast leagues of deluded Obama supporters who think or thought that Obama could change the world due to being a nice guy. Very nieve and foolish.
The likes of Kim Jong Il and the Iranian regime have got Obama sussed out and it wont end well for the US or world peasce.

I don't want to blow up a bomb here but...

Tell that to the moms that lost sons in Iraq. I'm not complaining about Afganistan. But where are the WMD? What exactly did we go there for?

No self respecting officer likes war. The emphasis should be on peace by deterrance, not war. If we were really after WMD, we would've gone into North Korea A LONG FRIGGIN TIME AGO. Yes, the world has one less brutal dictator. But at what cost? And what did we really gain? Somewhere along the line, someone really fudged up with the intel on the supposed "WMD".

4,000+ KIA and counting in Iraq. Some people don't ever dare ask why. But I do. And I want to be an Air Force pilot, so it isn't like I'm a dove either. Freedom ain't free, but recklessly entering a war without proper intel is not the way to spread our freedom. Like an officer who witnessed the charge of the light brigade said, "It is magnificent, but it is not war, it is madness".

Listen people! On an interview by Larry king our last president made a very imperative statement: "The next prersidents # one priority should be national sec." The way I see it, if you want to have a strong economy you need a strong military. Mr. Obama is willing to waste millions on usless programs and on the other hand doesnt want or at least shows no interest in our national security. First secure our people and then worry about your people.

Ugh! More political flame wars. This is the one thing that happens periodically on this site that everyone hates. Probably the worst thing that happens around here.

We recently booted a kid from the site, who constantly hijacked threads in order to use this site to push his agenda. This site is so much better, now that he's gone.

The point folks, is this: If you are going to debate this topic, then stick to the argument for or against the plane itself. DO NOT use this forum to bash political leaders. If you want to do that, then I recommend going to cnn.com or foxnews.com

Why isn't it being used over in the desert right now, it was sold to Congress as an F/A-22!

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Mr. Obama's Raptor