Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Take all the best F-16 maintenance studs on this site. Give them 4 brand new F-16s..... Surge them for two years (no skimping on maintenance funds-I'm lookin at you USAF Laughing

) ... record the results.

This should be the bar that the F-35A will have to limbo under.

An F-35A squadron may pull this off 5 or 6 years after IOC (so as to give tribal knowledge time to get consistent)...

But right now it is just a hope, a goal, .... not a reality at this time. Yet some claim it is already so.

Confused

F-16.net Sponsor

ELP,

What is your point exactlly? The F-16 has had 30 years of gestation to be where it is. I remember when the "lawn dart" nomenclature was given to this acft. Yet it has become the backbone of the USAF. You are simply giving this acft no chance whatsoever because you saw some "Powerpoint slides" as you love to say. I would have to question your answers regarding the F-35. The F-16 was hardcore during its development phase, since it was pushing the envelope as well. Relaxed stability, fly by wire, 30 degree seat, etc.. game changing indeed and still the benchmark today. And now we have JHMCS, AESA, EOTS, DAS, EHA controls, stealth, sensor fusion, ...... also gamechanging. And exactlly what claims are you disputing??? I hear the PP story all the time from you, but no actual info on what these claims are. Airplane, check. Engine, check. Avionics testing on CATbird, check. Pilot opinions, check. Stealth, well that is up for debate. But considering CFD power these days, it makes me feel pretty good. Please give us a real answer to your angst, not the rhetorical answer you always give.

Paradigms will never move you forward. If you can't change your opinion on what is possible and believe in it, then you are simply stuck in your situation. To me, problems are simply questions that have not been answered yet. I think you seem to prejudge way too much.

cywolf32 wrote:

ELP,

What is your point exactlly?

He's running out of material to work with and getting really desperate...

shep1978 wrote:

cywolf32 wrote:

ELP,

What is your point exactlly?

He's running out of material to work with and getting really desperate...

That's alright. When your limitations expose your actual technical capacity, one can always resort to worn out and meaningless cliches, such as "Blue Sky Marketing" etc...

Who is ELP? A blogger. Nothing more. Certainly not someone whose opinion carries any weight, whatsoever.

Rather like APA, actually... Smile

Conan wrote:

shep1978 wrote:

cywolf32 wrote:

ELP,

What is your point exactlly?

He's running out of material to work with and getting really desperate...

That's alright. When your limitations expose your actual technical capacity, one can always resort to worn out and meaningless cliches, such as "Blue Sky Marketing" etc...

Who is ELP? A blogger. Nothing more. Certainly not someone whose opinion carries any weight, whatsoever.

Rather like APA, actually... Smile

Agreed enitrely, the guys looking more and more daft with every post he makes. Time to retire from the game ELP, your looking like the Jesse Jackson of aviation more and more.

Pop Quiz: If the readers of this forum had to choose one group of peoples’ opinions they feel actually matter, who would it be? I'm guessing it probably wouldn't be a prior photographer for the Air Force. Nobody can argue that ELP had a career full of incredible experiences, but at the same time I don’t think more than 1% (ELP himself) of the people on this forum would choose prior Air Force photographers as the group of people they hope are satisfied with the direction of the F-35.

I'm guessing around 75-85% of you would say the pilots. If you are one of those people, I agree with you. I can also tell you first hand that you’ll be hard pressed to find a fighter pilot who’s not extremely excited about the F-35 coming online. I can also tell you that fighter pilots most assuredly know more about the F-35, its capabilities, its progress, and the numerous ways that it’s going to be a game-changer than a retired photographer. I can also tell you that the pilot’s are not biased towards Lockheed or any other manufacturer. All they care about is stepping into an aircraft that is going to give them a distinct advantage and offer the greatest chance of coming home in a cockpit and not a coffin. If Lockheed was manufacturing a “turd” as ELP has referred to it before, you would find a lot of disgruntled fighter pilots…but guess what, you don’t find many at all (at least not when it comes to the F-35)…hmm, I wonder why that might be?

Point being: the pilots know more than ELP, the pilots are the ones that matter, and the pilots are satisfied. It’s case closed as far as I’m concerned.

I think this Elp bashing has gone on long enough - he is no different to any of you - only you happen to support the F-35, he doesn't.

shep1978 wrote:

Conan wrote:

shep1978 wrote:

cywolf32 wrote:

ELP,

What is your point exactlly?

He's running out of material to work with and getting really desperate...

That's alright. When your limitations expose your actual technical capacity, one can always resort to worn out and meaningless cliches, such as "Blue Sky Marketing" etc...

Who is ELP? A blogger. Nothing more. Certainly not someone whose opinion carries any weight, whatsoever.

Rather like APA, actually... Smile

Agreed enitrely, the guys looking more and more daft with every post he makes. Time to retire from the game ELP, your looking like the Jesse Jackson of aviation more and more.

Yeah because someone named Shep and Coan carry so much weight to the argument. Laughing

elp wrote:

Yeah because someone named Shep and Coan carry so much weight to the argument. Laughing

And there we have it people, pure desperation when resorting to insults over someones internet 'handle'
It seems its just you and Peter Goon, sorry Underhill left in your club it seems as everyone else has grown wise to you and your every increasingly desperate attacks on the F-35 program.
ELP, it's time to retire from playing the game of armchair procurment expert/ armchair aircraft expert/ armchair defense expert and go back to photograhy as no-one listens to you or takes you seriously anymore.

Elp makes a good point. He's pretty much unique here because he has ID'd himself. Shep, Code3, Beazz, Conan and the rest could all be spotty teenagers snarfing pizza and Red Bull in Mom's basement for all we know, and so could I.

underhill wrote:

Elp makes a good point. He's pretty much unique here because he has ID'd himself. Shep, Code3, Beazz, Conan and the rest could all be spotty teenagers snarfing pizza and Red Bull in Mom's basement for all we know, and so could I.

Mr Underhill (if that is your real name), I do hope you realise that some people like to remain anonymous for safety reasons on the internet.
Could you tell me is there a law or unwritten rule that states one must provide thier full name when using a forum; no of course not.
In short it means a big fat zilch that he uses his own name

Also whats with the "Mom's basement" snark, it makes you sound like a 14 year old 4chan poster.

Arguments from the anonymous have to be assessed on their merits. That's why appealing to private sources (like Code3's pilots) does not work. So to criticize elp on the grounds of his cv is a little meaningless when nobody else posts any details at all.

I did include myself in the Mom's basement comment, which by law and practice disqualifies it as snark.

And given your apparent familiarity with 4chan I'm not surprised that you keep a low profile.

underhill wrote:

Elp makes a good point. He's pretty much unique here because he has ID'd himself. Shep, Code3, Beazz, Conan and the rest could all be spotty teenagers snarfing pizza and Red Bull in Mom's basement for all we know, and so could I.

Indeed they all could be that and more however what sets these guys apart from ELP is the logic and use of known fact in their posts. The same cannot be said for Eric L Palmer and his endless tirade against the F-35 in the absence of any facts to back his arguments up.

What does the L stand for BTW Underhill?

elp wrote:

Take all the best F-16 maintenance studs on this site. Give them 4 brand new F-16s..... Surge them for two years (no skimping on maintenance funds-I'm lookin at you USAF Laughing

) ... record the results.

This should be the bar that the F-35A will have to limbo under.

An F-35A squadron may pull this off 5 or 6 years after IOC (so as to give tribal knowledge time to get consistent)...

But right now it is just a hope, a goal, .... not a reality at this time. Yet some claim it is already so.

Confused

Who is claiming that? Can you provide a quote. AFAIK, people merely refer to it as a design goal. You on the other hand assert and insinuate that it will not happen. Of course it's not reality in this phase. If you have ever been a program manager or talked to one, and you have even if you don't know it, at this stage, the production candidate may or may not be able to demonstrate that it is feature complete. However, if there was significant risk that the F-35 wasn't going to meet the requirement then you would not her people talking like they do about the program as moving along well. Moreover, because the aircraft is developing, it can still be brought back into spec.

-DA

Hey Guys,

I realize the post was started to question who ELP is. I think that has been answered. He answered it. He gave us his background. Now many are attacking the ELP the individual, who has been bold enough to answer the initial question. Casting aspersions on an individual because he believes differently than you is not what I believe this forum is about. It is about the aircraft and thought provoking discussion. If you don't like his objections to the JSF then provide the reason why with facts. When he doesn't believe those because they are provided from LM then realize that you're at an impasse and may have to just wait for time to prove which one is right.

If he fires back at your comment and subsequently at you personally it is most likely because you gave in first to attacking him and not his arguement.

Really? is this what we want in a forum discussion?

I think ELP is adding to the discussion, he is making those who believe in the JSF justify those belief's while providing some insightful arguments against some of its hyped claims. In some instances only time will tell whether his beliefs were correct or yours. So just because you don't believe his propaganda doesn't mean he'll believe yours.

Welcome to what it must be like trying to be a negotiator for an international agreement when not all the facts to begin a discussion have been agreed upon. Until everyone to agrees on the same set of argument parameters and facts we'll have this impasse and what has now devolved into name calling.

I think the forum is better than this. Discuss the issues, disagree or agree but avoid the character assassinations.

Two Cents

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Who is Eric L. Palmer?