Forum: F-35 Lightning II

ELP was an Aviation Photographer for the USAF, if I recall correctly. So while yes, he has talked to tons of people in the AF and seen lots of airplanes in his day, I'm pretty sure he's never flown one or seen a high-level analysis meeting on procurement. I'd read an oral history of the AF by him, but his credentials hardly give him an insiders view to the "other" parts that must be considered in aircraft procurement, namely (often secret) technology research, high-level planning, and political leveraging.

And talking to pilots all your life certainly colors your attitudes towards certain new super-awesome pilot's airplanes and legacy aircraft that said pilots have been talking up for 30 years. Given that, it's easy to see why ELP is ingrained with such bias against the F-35, which he sees as inadequate, despite the fact that technical advances negate any percieved performance shortfalls versus older designs. Oh, and being so connected to the military means he's more likely to blame the Government and those damn contractors for everything that goes wrong.

But that's just my ameteur pseudo-psychological analysis.

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Interesting reading for sure. Wondering why ELP has such a bias towards JSF is not that interesting to me. His sources are interesting because from these same sources I suspect ELP picks up said bias (mixed in with whatever else). What would interest me would be the sources for ELPs information - NOT the way ELP interprets this information. To my jaundiced eye there seems to be a lessening of ELP's usual rhetoric about the JSF. Perhaps reality is taking hold?

A good source for whatever my own contacts & I bring to this discussion would be at: http://www.a4ghistory.com/

cywolf32 wrote:

Eric,

While I applaud your experiences, it in no way makes you an expert. I am 3rd generation military myself. My grandfather flew on the Picadilly Lilly in WWII. Have the dog tag and flight cap to prove it. My father was an F-111/F-4 engine mechanic during Vietnam. I myself was an F-16 CC @ Misawa with the 14th FS and I know the "Elephant Cage" quite well. Not to mention I worked as an F-16 Specialist for the Royal Dutch and Royal Norwegian Air Forces. Considering what I know, I think I have some insight on the subject, but would never consider myself an expert simply because of it. You on the other hand seem to think your heritage gives you some distinct advantage on the subject.

Please tell me what company doesn't see $$$ signs?? Its the whole point. What matters here is what company had the best product available at the time, and Lockheed won. If you want the X-32, please let us know. If you have a better idea, please let us know. Please tell me of one acft program that has not had its problems in development. And what is it about the F-35 that you dislike so much?? To have a background as you say and to be so pessimistic leaves one to wonder.

I am not disputing that many programs have had problems. Or even that the F-35 has some great potential. What should be challenged are the wild and stupid claims that haven't been proven - look at most F-35 presentations.

jacarlsen wrote:

IThe F-16 was ordered by the USAF (600+)and EPAF (300+) before the SDD airplanes flew, if I am not mistaken, and it has turned out to be one hell of an airplane. Comparing todays F-16 to the first production models is sort of comparing apples and oranges, same basic shape, but not the same inside. .

Agree 100% about it being one hell of an airplane. Its been said that if the original proponents of the F-16 knew what it would eventually morph into, it would probably never have been built. I also see eye-to-eye with you re the F-35. At the onset it promises to be a world-beater and one can only imagine what it will be like 20 years down the road.

The forum stands in complete awe.. Thats one helluva résumé there, eric. Applause

The supreme council has now authorized you to post your natural analytical interpretations of whatever matter you may wish, from here on.

And for those wishing to make a reply to eric, you may feel free to first publish your expert credentials as an engineer on a 5th gen fighter program before posting..

Other than that, @ jacarlsen: I envy you in part.. at one time I wanted to join the USAF but never did (I got as far as C.A.P. in High School) and I will always respect those in any air force who volunteer professionally as a service career. Regarding early, pre-SDD F-16 orders et al.. thats a fair argument. Although the block 1 F-16 was arguably so technologically simple as a 'Low-element' fighter, that the brilliant design and high performance alone of the prototype was enough to sell the concept. Perhaps the comparison of a tech-simple block 1 F-16 therefore can't be made vs the historical Block III, technologically-complex F-35 pre-SDD order?

IMHO, perhaps this analogy would be more accurate to pre-ordering block 40 F-16, back in 1977? (expecting the integrated blk 40 systems to be fully mature and functioning by around 1981?)

P.S. I know this is making some here puke by reading other members being in actual defense of eric (here's a bag in advance), but if you give a critical review of his true opinions.. you will note that he does NOT hope for a failed F-35 program and in fact wishes to heck (emphasis added) for the system to become credible, justified and as successful as advertised?

Being critical of a program in itself however and favoring other alternatives does not justify such a level of hysteria. Face it.. the guy is good at what he does, whether you agree or not. So just make a better counter-argument than his or don't post!

Respects-

"ELP Defens(c)e Blog - Opinions on war stuff that may or may not work": http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/

ELP has had a few blog sites but I think he has made it clear that these sites hold his 'opinions' and NOT FACT. ELP has seemingly good facts most often (hence my interest in sources). However we may of course disagree with his opinions - no big deal. Feel free to disagree with me also. Smile

So, I guess you need an engineering degree to post here now. Well, I ain't got one. I have, on many occasions, been asked by an engineer how to go about fixing a problem. After said engineers get the suggestion from us low life mechanics he goes to his little office, types it up, calls it his own and cashes a paycheck. My point? One does not have to have an engineering degree to have some idea of what they are talking about. These are opinions people. If someone elses opinion differs from yours.....TUFF!.......GET OVER IT!!!! I've noticed that this forum has been taken over by "experts" over the last few months. That's why I read through less and less everytime I'm here. Oh, and my opinion of the F-35.........POS, but I'll be surprised if we end up owning even one.

When I started on this little topic, my intention was not to only have engineers talking about airplane design. EVERYBODY has an opinion and EVERYBODY is entitled to one (or many). I just wanted to know how mr. Palmer got his information to be able to judge his articles for my self. It's like hearing from one person that that car is a piece of sh*t, and from another that it is great. Their background and experience must also be judged to give the statements credit or not.

As for me, I have worked close to 12 years on the F-16, so there I feel pretty confident that my opinion has merit. On the F-35 however, IO have seen the full scale mockup at the Bodø airshow 2008 and flown the simulator. Landed "safely" on a carrier (though the LSO would probably have killed me).

If you read all for the powerpoint presentations for the F-35, it promises alot, yes, but the big question is, can LMart afford to NOT fulfill these promises? There are F/A-18 E/F's ready to be sold to the airforce, navy, marines. Boeing has launched the Silent Eagle and a sale to the USAF would be good business. The F-16 is still being prodused. If the F-35 failes, technoligies from it could be siffoned to these other airframes and put to good use. LMart can not afford to miss with the F-35, it would just cost to much in PR and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

cutlassracer wrote:

...... These are opinions people. If someone elses opinion differs from yours.....TUFF!.......GET OVER IT!!!! I've noticed that this forum has been taken over by "experts" over the last few months. That's why I read through less and less everytime I'm here.

So "experts" aren't supposed to have an opinion?

Well, I read back through this, and I only have a real problem with one person here. The one asking for credentials would be the one. Well, Shep, elp posted his lifes history, it's only fair we here yours now. That way we know if we need to take what you say with a grain of salt.

Elp,

That is an impressive career, but I fail to see how it makes you so knowledgeable about the F-35. Let me put it this way. You boast about seeing and knowing things that the general public has not seen. I respect that and admire that, and I would never question you on that knowledge. Thus you should recognize that since you have not seen or know anything about the F-35 but the brochures you despise, that you have no unique or special knowledge or insight. If you think it will fail, it is fine to say and wish that. But to claim that it is already a failure, or is destined for failure, or chastise those who think it wont be a failure...is, in my opinion, disrespectful to the mechanics, engineers, and other grunts giving up their weekends and nights away from their families trying to make the F-35 a success. Their only voice is time, and time will tell whether the F-35 is what the brochures say it is.

Go here for more on ELP: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... .html#more

We've created a troll of epic proportions. (or should it be elpic proportions?)

ELP, keep your head up. We need people like ELP to take a hard look at things and not to simply accept things at face value. As for the F-35, its avionics sure look good on paper (electronic paper; PDF file, PowerPoint presentation etc...) but it will need to PROVE itself as a worthy successor to the F-16 and F-18. We shall see and we will also see just how good or not good its LO capabilities prove to be in real world operations, not to mention the fact its ability for self-defence/offensive air-to-air capability.

JetBlast16

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Who is Eric L. Palmer?