Forum: F-22A Raptor

Active Member Joined: Jun 01, 2004 - 08:55 AM Posts: 134

The Senate Appropriations Committee chairman has written to the Japanese ambassador in Washington, suggesting that Japan might expect to pay $290 million each for 40 F-22 Raptors. Sen. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii, sketched out a theoretical time frame for the deal, with major development lasting "approximately four years, followed by ground and flight testing," and deliveries beginning in 2017. Along with Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., Inouye has championed F-22 exports to Japan, which has long desired the high-tech fighter.

complete article here:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/JF22062509.xml

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Thanks for the link Fretmarks! I noticied that article on aviation week as well. Is it just me or does it seem like the F-22's price was intentionally inflated to steer potential customers towards the F-35 Lightning II instead? If I'm speaking out of line, by all means feel free to set me straight but the numbers sound a bit odd to me.

FlightDreamz wrote:

Thanks for the link Fretmarks! I noticied that article on aviation week as well. Is it just me or does it seem like the F-22's price was intentionally inflated to steer potential customers towards the F-35 Lightning II instead? If I'm speaking out of line, by all means feel free to set me straight but the numbers sound a bit odd to me.

No, I don't think so. Remember, Japan only wants a small number plus a export model needs to be developed. So, any export model is not going to be cheap.

Regardless, put the real numbers out there and see if Japan bites???? Wink

I really don't understand why they want F-22's so bad, maybe the F-35 looks too much like a offensive aircraft (with the emphasis on strike and all). It seems like the F-35 would be a much better deal, especially if they have to fund development of the apparently very different export version.

Hm, maybe the new version would utilize F-35 style RAM, which would reduce maintenance costs and increase availability rates. That would make it a very attractive airplane...

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

I really don't understand why they want F-22's so bad, maybe the F-35 looks too much like a offensive aircraft (with the emphasis on strike and all). It seems like the F-35 would be a much better deal, especially if they have to fund development of the apparently very different export version.

Hm, maybe the new version would utilize F-35 style RAM, which would reduce maintenance costs and increase availability rates. That would make it a very attractive airplane...

Well, I doubt that the Japanese Public would support 290 Million Dollar Raptors. Especially, in today's economic climate.......

Let's also not forget its likely the F-35 could be produced under license. Which, would be out of the question for the Raptor.

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

I really don't understand why they want F-22's so bad....

I've heard that supersonic endurance is a very big deal to the Japanese in maintaining coverage over disputed areas far from the main islands. I'm sure that keeping up appearances is also very important for the JASDF in deterring China.

The Japanese are used to buying the best. No compromises.

psychmike wrote:

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

I really don't understand why they want F-22's so bad....

I've heard that supersonic endurance is a very big deal to the Japanese in maintaining coverage over disputed areas far from the main islands. I'm sure that keeping up appearances is also very important for the JASDF in deterring China.

Also, perhaps the first F-35 squadrons being proposed for delivery to JASDF would still be derivatives of block IV (say delivered around 2016-2017)? And perhaps the hypothetical block IV being relatively under-equipped in 'Situational awareness'; 'COMS'; 'self-protection'; 'battle management'; and 'internal A-A ordnance carriage' would not quite meet some vital requirements?

Not to over-simplify the issue but maybe hypothetically if the block V was made available for delivery by 2015-2016, it could have better addressed some specific determining factors and influenced more JASDF interest?

The Japanese have the wonderful F-2. Why haven't they made an aggressive upgrade of that aircraft to give them breathing room. If I understand it correctly, its a x-large version of the F-16. Make it the equal of the proposed F-16 block 80 and they'll have a war winner.

at least until they buy more F-35s! Cheers

If the Japanese get the F-22, I guess their ATD-X program would be dropped.

Seeing how reluctant the United States is to export the F-22, could a "castrated" Raptor be developed that was safe for export? Give it lower cost, lower performance RAM, a shorter-ranged radar set, weaker engines that limit supercruise, etc? Would the very act of developing a "castrated" Raptor actually cause the price to go up?

Kryptid wrote:

If the Japanese get the F-22, I guess their ATD-X program would be dropped.

Seeing how reluctant the United States is to export the F-22, could a "castrated" Raptor be developed that was safe for export? Give it lower cost, lower performance RAM, a shorter-ranged radar set, weaker engines that limit supercruise, etc? Would the very act of developing a "castrated" Raptor actually cause the price to go up?

I see little reason why Japan would be interested in a downgraded F-22. Especially, one that cost 290 Million........... Wink

Active Member Joined: Jun 01, 2004 - 08:55 AM Posts: 134

if the f-35 is being offered to international partners, and from what data that we have now, that the f-35 would be better, all around, than the f-22, except for certain capabilities like air supremacy and supercruise(?), why go through all the hassle downgrading the raptor for FMS? i can't see the logic behind it. the f-35 will be offered to a far more number of customers. probable customer for the raptor: only japan, and probably israel in the near future. but why the need for downgrades? japan and israel are arguably two of the closest US allies.

fretmarks wrote:

if the f-35 is being offered to international partners, and from what data that we have now, that the f-35 would be better, all around, than the f-22, except for certain capabilities like air supremacy and supercruise(?), why go through all the hassle downgrading the raptor for FMS? i can't see the logic behind it. the f-35 will be offered to a far more number of customers. probable customer for the raptor: only japan, and probably israel in the near future. but why the need for downgrades? japan and israel are arguably two of the closest US allies.

Especially, considering Japan could produce it locally and with some Japanese content. Plus the fact that the F-35 will be more than a match for any likely threat from China.

BTW Even, if Japan would get the Raptor. It would likely be followed by the Lightning II at some point regardless....... Wink

Last edited by FlightDreamz on Jun 28, 2009 - 10:22 PM; edited 2 times in total

Quote:

Cosair1963
BTW Even, if Japan would get the Raptor. It would likely be followed by the Lightning II at some point regardless.......

Good point Corsair, that's probably true since the F-22 & F-35's were intended to replace the F-15 & F-16's originally. Now if its affordable and whether an F-22 Raptor is ever exported at ALL is another story. I'm open to an export F-22 with a different radar set and downgraded stealth coatings (as other members have mentioned), I believe the APG-79 AESA radar from the Navy's new F-18 E/F's was one possibility. But we'll just have and wait and see.

And I didn't think about readying the F-22 for export adding to the price. But I was under the impression that studies have already been done in that area (before Congress mandated that the F-22 NOT be exported anyway)?

FlightDreamz wrote:

Quote:

Cosair1963
BTW Even, if Japan would get the Raptor. It would likely be followed by the Lightning II at some point regardless.......

Good point Corsair, that's probably true since the F-22 & F-35's were intended to replace the F-15 & F-16's originally. Now if its affordable and whether an F-22 Raptor is ever exported at ALL is another story. I'm open to an export F-22 with a different radar set and downgraded stealth coatings (as other members have mentioned), I believe the APG-79 AESA radar from the Navy's new F-18 E/F's was one possibility. But we'll just have and wait and see.

Personally, I see no reason why Japan shouldn't get the same F-22 as the USAF. Remember, JSF Members will get the same F-35's as the US.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

$290M price tag on F-22's for Japan