Forum: Technology

Pilotasso wrote:

But since the collapse of the USSR (even a bit earlier) russia simply lacked the funds and time for anything else than modifications.

That is not true. During last eight years, or "Putin years" as russians call them now russian budget was getting huge incomes from exteremely high priced oil and natural gas sales and their budget actually got overfilled allowing them to make strategic reserves like Stabilisation Fund.

I think eight years of multibillion budget incomes are quite enough to launch PAK-FA program all the way forward and make the maiden flight of a 5th generation aircraft.

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Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

wrightwing wrote:

Guysmiley wrote:

Pilotasso wrote:

Its not so much stupidity. Developing a whole new aircraft is risky and very costly. The Su-27 airframe is indeed versatile and has got lots of room for grouth. But since the collapse of the USSR (even a bit earlier) russia simply lacked the funds and time for anything else than modifications.

And that could actually be taken as an indictment against the U.S. military-industrial complex rather than a hit on Russia. We spend a LOT of money on our war machine, like double the entire European Union, ten times more than China, fifteen times more than Russia. Assuming Russia can keep up on next-gen fighter development is pretty unrealistic.

I'm not sure indictment or war machine, are the correct words to describe maintaining an effective military.

I'm speaking more towards the "Bruised Russian pride" reaction to our skepticism about their supposed 5th gen fighter projects.

Hello to everyone,
Again it was very interesting to read your opinions and learn more about the situation of the russian aviation.

Saintwarrior, I know you didn't show any disrespect toward the russian aircrafts and it is really nice that your dad worked in the russian air force for so long.
Around 1.5 million russian's (from various ex Ussr republics) have imigrated to Israel since the early 1990's and I know many ex pilots/ folks that worked for the Russian air force that are saying the same things your dad said to you about the russian airplanes.
Some of these folks have told me during the years that lots of the knowhow has been "copied" by the russian from the americans (I hope you understood what I ment with this last sentence Wink

).
I am not arguing about the western airplanes being better than the russian ones, I know the western airplanes are better as A fact, as I mentioned above that this was one of Israel's main advantages against our rivals.
The point I was trying to make is to say that the Air Forces that are not western (like India for example) are improving rapidly, also their knowhow in the aviation field is growing and it is not surprising that they want to be in the forefront of the PAK project (if it will go ahead), and the second thing I wanted to say is that the russian airplanes with western technology (for example, fbw, hud, tvc, avionics, etc) can be formidable rivals to western airplanes, thats all.

Okay I am going to watch the Champions League's final now.
A lovely evening to everyone at F-16 Smile

India may have a capable air force and pilots, but the fact is that their current procurement campaigns are pretty much either US (F15, F18) or Russian aircraft to be built under license in India. So much for their local development capability.

jacob wrote:

The point I was trying to make is to say that the Air Forces that are not western (like India for example) are improving rapidly, also their knowhow in the aviation field is growing and it is not surprising that they want to be in the forefront of the PAK project

There is also an open question, whether India will participate in PAK-FA project or not. As far as you know, MRCA tender is accelerating and U.S. has offered nearly the same deal conditions for aircarft procurement as russians did earlier. I mean F-16IN Block 70 Super Viper and proposed availability for technology share and licenced manufacturing at Indian plants. I've readen from various sources that Indian military officials were very excited by the performance of U.S. aircraft during evaluation tests. We can make a conclusion that Super Viper technology trasfer could easily lead to full-scale Indian participation in F-35 Lightning II program in future.

However, Russian vice-minister Sergey Ivanov has already assured President Dmitry Medvedev that Mig-35 will win that contest. We will see of course, but Mig-35 is already ~ $70 million priced, Zhuk-AE AESA is somewhat of unfinished product in a test stage, compared to Raytheon APG-80. Procurement conditions are nearly the same and only God knows who will win the MRCA in the result.

Okey, i have some information for you.
can be interested. and think again, maybe you know nothink about Russian weapons? i guess its stupid to think, that weapons you have is ultimate.
yes, f-16,f-15,f-18 is one of the best planes in the world and f-22 is best, at least for 4-7 years.

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Guys, what are you talking about? What dogfights in air combat of XXI century? When A-A missiles getting range up to ~ 100 miles like latest AIM-120 AMRAAM versions.

And what? N035 Irbis can detect 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.
and R-77M have 108.7M range and R-37 have up to 250M (!!) range.
iam not talking about F-22, because its 5th gen and there is still no 100% information about it RCS in any wave band.
but what about f-16 or f-15? iam not talking about chances, but is Su-35BM at least very good plane and hard enemy?
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35/su-35.htm read this please, and say what do you think.

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He was shocked and I remember his short historical phrase: "They do fly better...".

come on... dont be kid.

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SU-34 is a Flanker
SU-35 is a Flanker
SU-37 is a Flanker
SU-47 Berkut is a Flanker
SU-30 is a Flanker

well... ur are not right about all here.
su-34 is Bomber Flanker, su-35 is almost new inside (read line upper) also you can watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTaRehcPTQ .
su-37 was a test machine for thrust vectoring, but Su-47 is new machine.
just look at photo, i dont see anythink simular except nose...
http://paralay.com/s37/3722.jpg , it also have g-Limits up to 11G.
machine is uniqe and with mig 1.44 it is GOOD platform for develop 5th gen PAK-FA.

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Radar systems are not weight effective, I mean huge radars with medium capabilities resulting in large nose of Flanker, this adds even more RCS

Medium capabilities? Smile

read more about Irbis-E or Zhuk-AE.

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Engine air intakes are of straight flow construction with huge RCS

well, SU-35BM have 1 m2 RCS its lower than F-16 or F-15.
and look at that su-47 photo - http://paralay.com/s37/3720.jpg air intakes changed.

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Chassis mounting points do not allow to install either "F-15 styled" CFTs or internal weapon bays.

well, since you said that Su-37 is Flanker and this topic is about PAK-FA look at that photo http://paralay.com/s37/niz.jpg COMEON, what is that? Laughing

yes, yes its internal weapon bays. Laughing

so, iam sure PAK-FA will be at least much more better than ANY eu/us/ru/ch/watever 4,4+,4++ gen plane. and comparable to F-22. iam not saying that it will be better and i dont think that they will ever fight in air, but iam sure that it will be good plane.

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We spend a LOT of money on our war machine, like double the entire European Union, ten times more than China, fifteen times more than Russia.

USA will spend 500B on military in 2009, Russia will spend 50B, since when 500/50 = 50? alot of money goes to Sukhoi btw.
and dont forget that almost all money will be spend on employees salary.
and russian employees gets like 3-4 times lower salary.
so, its still MUCH more lower than USA spend, but you need to be idiot to say that Russia is lacked of founds.

sorry for my english, its not my native lang as you already understand.
i have nothink versus USA, i was twice in NY this year Smile

ist it sexy?

Inf1kek,

Welcome to 16.net site!

Perhaps you are Malay? I guess only from your name (kek) Smile

and yeah, also given the airforce 'fin' on that Su, lol! (I hope to make a Scuba holiday one day there)

No question, Sukhoi is very sexy. And of course: Su-35BM and Su-34 will make a very modern strategic capability once they are produced in real numbers.. Perhaps by 2016-17 there will be a strategic airpower balancing shift? At least for a short term? It would arguably depend on who would be winning the new arms race then, and if more Block 6 F-35 could be produced faster than the opponent's 5th gen product, etc, etc. Crazy indeed..

Maybe USAF could produce more 'stylish' jets also?? Such as delta configured F-16 advancements and maybe even future F-15 advancements similar this speculation:

Well, thanks for not versus USA Laughing

and agreed, NY is an amazing city created in recent history.

Respects~

inf1kek wrote:

And what? N035 Irbis can detect 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.

And that - AIM-120D AMRAAM will be already inbound at that range as APG-70 has got detection range well over 100 km even in LPI mode. SU-35BM is already doomed in such situation if his pilot encounters an F-22A Raptor. By the way Raptor's RCS is definately smaller than 0.01 m2.

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R-77M have 108.7M range and R-37 have up to 250M (!!) range

Yeah, yeah of course. In commercial brochures? But nevertheless, will you do us a favor and tell us first were are the facilities, that produce those missiles? Are those facilities in Russia? And what are the kill ratios of those A-A missiles? Why there are absolutely no information regarding kill ratios of any russian A-A missile, while operational history of AIM-120 AMRAAM is showing a kill ratio well over 90 percent if not the whole 100?

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come on... dont be kid

Kids are in Russia, especially those watching Kremlin propagandist military TV shows like "Strike Force" where each program is packed with "The world's best and unrivalled" gear.

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Medium capabilities? read more about Irbis-E or Zhuk-AE.

Yes, dear Sir, medium capabilities and unfinished develolopment stage at the moment. ~120 km detection range for Zhuk-AE which is something like AESAs being designed for RAFALE and Grippen-NG fighters and Irbis-E - which is still PESA. I would not even try to compare those radars with future upgraded versions of APG-70.

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GOOD platform for develop 5th gen PAK-FA

Then go ahead developing PAK-FA and show it to the public if Flanker is still a good platform. What are you talking about? How an airframe, originally designed as an appropriate answer to the threat of late 1970s - early 1980s be still a good platform for aircraft development almost 30 years later?

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yes, yes its internal weapon bays

The only possible place to install internal weapon bays on Flanker is right between engine air intakes. Radical redesign of air intakes themselves is needed, as well as flattening of the bottom for stealth increase. Isn't it easier to develop a whole new airframe instead of doing that "hard-core tuning"?

Speaking generally, "hurrah - patriotism" with eyes closed at real things is considered a bad attitude at most serious military forums, and russian ones are not the exception. People dislike Sukhoi chairman Pogosian there and do not trust all that commersial advertisements regarding the superiority of Flanker series. It is already like a comedy, Sukhoi invents nothing new but Flanker, which is still "better than any future counterparts".

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And that - AIM-120D AMRAAM will be already inbound at that range as APG-70 has got detection range well over 100 km even in LPI mode. SU-35BM is already doomed in such situation if his pilot encounters an F-22A Raptor. By the way Raptor's RCS is definately smaller than 0.01 m2.

iam not talking about F-22, talking about F-15 and F-16 and F-18.
because there is _no_chance_ except 3rd world war (when USA and Russian will be already dead) that Su-35BM will encounter F-22.

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Yeah, yeah of course. In commercial brochures? But nevertheless, will you do us a favor and tell us first were are the facilities, that produce those missiles? Are those facilities in Russia? And what are the kill ratios of those A-A missiles? Why there are absolutely no information regarding kill ratios of any russian A-A missile, while operational history of AIM-120 AMRAAM is showing a kill ratio well over 90 percent if not the whole 100?

its 0.9 for РВВ-АЕ (R-77M).

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Kids are in Russia, especially those watching Kremlin propagandist military TV shows like "Strike Force" where each program is packed with "The world's best and unrivalled" gear.

No kids in USA? that makes me sad.
I did not vote for Putin/Medvedev, and there is MUCH more propagandist military TV shows in USA.

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Yes, dear Sir, medium capabilities and unfinished develolopment stage at the moment. ~120 km detection range for Zhuk-AE which is something like AESAs being designed for RAFALE and Grippen-NG fighters and Irbis-E - which is still PESA. I would not even try to compare those radars with future upgraded versions of APG-70.

But anyway, Irbis-E will detect F-18 with 1m2 RCS from 300km.

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Then go ahead developing PAK-FA and show it to the public if Flanker is still a good platform. What are you talking about? How an airframe, originally designed as an appropriate answer to the threat of late 1970s - early 1980s be still a good platform for aircraft development almost 30 years later?

did you ever read what i post? iam talking about Su-47 and Mig 1.44.
its not 80s platform and by the way F-22 is 90s tech and platform.

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The only possible place to install internal weapon bays on Flanker is right between engine air intakes. Radical redesign of air intakes themselves is needed, as well as flattening of the bottom for stealth increase. Isn't it easier to develop a whole new airframe instead of doing that "hard-core tuning"?

Speaking generally, "hurrah - patriotism" with eyes closed at real things is considered a bad attitude at most serious military forums, and russian ones are not the exception. People dislike Sukhoi chairman Pogosian there and do not trust all that commersial advertisements regarding the superiority of Flanker series. It is already like a comedy, Sukhoi invents nothing new but Flanker, which is still "better than any future counterparts".

Did you ever look at photo? i dont getting what are you talking about.
come on, you like a kid again. its looks much more that YOU are "hurrah - _sukoi_is_shit_ patriot", with closed eyes (you didt even read my post).
and since su-47 was not flanker upgrade (COME ON, are you blind?) all you said - is bullshit. you didt even agree, that Su-35BM is good plane, better then anythink EU and _comparable_ to f16/15/18, why? i because you are "hurrah, hurrah, hurrah Russia using 80s tech, hurrah hurrah". Laughing

ты не еврей случаем, обиженый на СССР ? Laughing

Last edited by Code3 on May 30, 2009 - 09:30 AM; edited 1 time in total

inf1kek...regarding your discussion on the detection ranges of the Su-35 vs 4th gen fighters:

Detection ranges obviously depend on the radar's power and the RCS of the target. While the Zhuk-AE has the POTENTIAL to be an incredible radar, it's still strapped to a Flanker. The Flanker's RCS is HUGE, seriously freaking HUGE. The Flanker is at a disadvantage right from the get-go. Teen fighters enjoy a large and signifcant advantage over the Flanker in this regard. The Zhuk-AE needs to have tremendous amounts of power over them just to level the playing field for the Flanker vs an F-16 (w/ APG-68 ) and F-18 (w/ APG-65). Now, in this regard it does, so it should be much more equal if not an advantage for the Flanker (considering these radars are 30yrs old).

However, if you take a look at what the APG-70 (F-16 blk60) and AN/APG-79 (F-18G) are capable of, the Flanker is quite literally toast. For these newer radars, picking up a Flanker with it's barn-door-like RCS is like trying to pick out the Empire State Building from 5th Ave (which I'm sure you'll understand since you frequent N.Y.). The Zhuk-AE would need to be orders of magnitude more powerful just to simply once again level the playing field, and I'm not the least bit confident that it is. It's not enough for the Russians to simply match the West's radar capability. The Russians would literally need to make a generational leap-frog over the West in order to enjoy a detection advantage as long as that radar is attached to a Flanker, and I think anyone with a sane mind would agree that is not likely to happen, especially within the 5 years Russia is claming it will take before the Su-35 is operational.

inf1kek wrote:

iam not talking about F-22, talking about F-15 and F-16 and F-18

F-15C with AESA as well as F-16E/F Block 60 are just the same what Mr. Pogosian calls a 4++ generation, I mean aircraft equal to SU-35BM or even better than it.

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its 0.9 for РВВ-АЕ (R-77M)

Can you provide any source of your information? There is lot's of info regarding the kill ratio of AIM-120 AMRAAM, including real operational histories, but anything regarding russian A-A missiles.

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iam talking about Su-47 and Mig 1.44

What is the idea of Su-47? The same Flanker but with reversed wings and modified airframe?

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ты не еврей случаем, обиженый на СССР ?

I will traslate to our overseas collegues if you do not mind. He asks me whether I am a not jew that feels anger at USSR. No, I am not a jew, as well as not an antisemite unlike you.

inf1kek wrote:

Okey, i have some information for you.
can be interested. and think again, maybe you know nothink about Russian weapons? i guess its stupid to think, that weapons you have is ultimate.
yes, f-16,f-15,f-18 is one of the best planes in the world and f-22 is best, at least for 4-7 years.
Medium capabilities? Smile

read more about Irbis-E or Zhuk-AE.

well, SU-35BM have 1 m2 RCS its lower than F-16 or F-15.
and look at that su-47 photo - http://paralay.com/s37/3720.jpg air intakes changed.

well, since you said that Su-37 is Flanker and this topic is about PAK-FA look at that photo http://paralay.com/s37/niz.jpg COMEON, what is that? Laughing

yes, yes its internal weapon bays. Laughing

And what? N035 Irbis can detect 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.
and R-77M have 108.7M range and R-37 have up to 250M (!!) range.

so, iam sure PAK-FA will be at least much more better than ANY eu/us/ru/ch/watever 4,4+,4++ gen plane. and comparable to F-22. iam not saying that it will be better and i dont think that they will ever fight in air, but iam sure that it will be good plane.
USA will spend 500B on military in 2009, Russia will spend 50B, since when 500/50 = 50? alot of money goes to Sukhoi btw.
and dont forget that almost all money will be spend on employees salary.
and russian employees gets like 3-4 times lower salary.
so, its still MUCH more lower than USA spend, but you need to be idiot to say that Russia is lacked of founds.

sorry for my english, its not my native lang as you already understand.

Lots of nonsense.

Neither the IRBIS or the ZHUK AE are even finished products much less in service. Russia doesnt manufacture AESA panels. I buys off the shelf commercial components from the west, a reason why these wonderfull radars are only offered for export.

R-77M has been axed. Russian only makes R-77RVVAE for export with no datalink The indians dont like this limtitation and are developing their own, so did the chinese. Russia AF main BVR missile remains the R-27ER.
R-37 is not in service.

Su-35 cannot be compared to Su-47: better, S-47. Su-47 doesnt exist.
RCS of the Su-35 will not change much since it still uses straight line intakes and that overblows RCS. Infact the shape of the SU-27 is largely conserved.

PAK-FA is still on concept art, it would be foolish to compare it to F-22 at this stage.

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Flanker's RCS is HUGE, seriously freaking HUGE.

its 1m2 for Su-35BM, cos its using composite mats.
same RCS as F-18 super hornet have, so its not HUGE.

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F-15C with AESA as well as F-16E/F Block 60 are just the same what Mr. Pogosian calls a 4++ generation, I mean aircraft equal to SU-35BM or even better than it.

this is what i want to hear.

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What is the idea of Su-47? The same Flanker but with reversed wings and modified airframe?

what do you mean SAME ? do you mean it have 2 wings? and 2 engines?

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No, I am not a jew, as well as not an antisemite unlike you.

are you kidding me? iam not antisemite, callings jews - jews, this is antisemitism?

Pilotasso, i have nothink to say to you, because you have no idea what are you talking about, pak-fa concept art? ha-ha.

and by the way, RCS is not MAIN tech. spect in plane.

inf1kek wrote:

its 1m2 for Su-35BM, cos its using composite mats

Composite mats or anti radar covering do not reduce the RCS significantly. Comparing with F-18E/F Super Hornet SU-35BM has got numerous weak spots in terms of RCS:

1. Straight line engine air intakes, which are not shielded and "S" formed like that was done on Super Hornet

2. It has a terrifically big nose section as all the rest russian aircraft.

3. It does not have a special airframe edging, that reduces RCS like in F-18E/F Super Hornet.

4. The RCS of SU-27 Flanker is something about 15 m2 so it is just impossible to decrease it 15 times just using anti-radar covering and you must take into consideration the fact, that payloaded Flanker will have even bigger RCS.

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what do you mean SAME ?

The airframe of Su-47 Berkut, particullary it's front and middle section that play key roles in RCS formation are the same as on Su-27 Flanker. They were borrowed in order to spare on development costs.

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RCS is not MAIN tech. spect in plane

In modern air combat it is foremost the main technical specification of a fighter aircraft as it determines whether enemy sees and is able to shoot at you or not.

inf1kek wrote:

And what? N035 Irbis can detect 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.
and R-77M have 108.7M range and R-37 have up to 250M (!!) range.
iam not talking about F-22, because its 5th gen and there is still no 100% information about it RCS in any wave band.
but what about f-16 or f-15? iam not talking about chances, but is Su-35BM at least very good plane and hard enemy?
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35/su-35.htm read this please, and say what do you think.

-The F-35/22 both have RCS well below .01 m2
-Tracking range is lower than detection range(and more pertinent as it will determine how far away a missile can be guided from).
-Neither the R-77M or R-37 are in production(nor is the KS-172)
-The ranges you listed are not the NEZ. They're the ballistic ranges, and not especially relevant in a tactical sense.
-The PK is unknown on these missiles for comparitive purposes with -120D, Meteor, etc...
-The Su-35 isn't in production yet, and its 1 m2 RCS claim is optimistic.

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well... ur are not right about all here.
su-34 is Bomber Flanker, su-35 is almost new inside (read line upper) also you can watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTaRehcPTQ .
su-37 was a test machine for thrust vectoring, but Su-47 is new machine.
just look at photo, i dont see anythink simular except nose...
http://paralay.com/s37/3722.jpg , it also have g-Limits up to 11G.
machine is uniqe and with mig 1.44 it is GOOD platform for develop 5th gen PAK-FA.

Western aircraft have significantly different hardware/software in their current forms, than in the early versions too.

The Mig 1.44 and Su-47 are not/will not ever be production aircraft. They are interesting technology demonstrators at best. You might ask yourself why they never were chosen for further development too.

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Medium capabilities? Smile

Forum: Technology

Sukhoi PAK FA