Forum: Technology

calel wrote:

Ok know, could someone explain to us how can a country who is supposed to be in an economic crisis for quite time know, and a third world country are developing a Fith Generation bird to compete with our Raptor. How can this possible? Arent we the most technological advanced air force?

At least they have the technological know-how and the infrastructure.

I wonder how long the Raptor's air dominance monopoly would last by the time the PAK FA enters IOC service with a few Russian VVS squadrons.

F-16.net Sponsor

skyhigh wrote:

darkvarkguy wrote:

....and it's still in the 'artist's rendition phase'.

I've answered your statement.

Look at the possible PAK FA configuration. It comes the closest to matching that of the Raptor. Take very careful note of the planform alignment.

The 3D TVC nozzles will make the difference.

Does this artist work for Sukhoi though? Have you seen how many different renderings there were when the F-15 was originally being designed(among other aircraft). If the Russians put 3D nozzles on the PAK FA, then they can forget about beating the RCS/IR reduction advantages of the Raptor's 2D system.

skyhigh wrote:

calel wrote:

Ok know, could someone explain to us how can a country who is supposed to be in an economic crisis for quite time know, and a third world country are developing a Fith Generation bird to compete with our Raptor. How can this possible? Arent we the most technological advanced air force?

At least they have the technological know-how and the infrastructure.

I wonder how long the Raptor's air dominance monopoly would last by the time the PAK FA enters IOC service with a few Russian VVS squadrons.

They have a crashed F-117 from Serbia and 1980's infrastructure.

That being said, think about this: the U.S. took a decade from test flying the YF-22 prototype, to actual IOC. If Russia test flies a plane tomorrow, they're still at least ten years away from fielding the a/c in todays economic climate, probably more time will be needed. Not to mention the F-22 is like 3rd gen stealth for us, their's will be first gen.That will be a factor because practical experience is king when designing war machines

calel wrote:

Ok know, could someone explain to us how can a country who is supposed to be in an economic crisis for quite time know, and a third world country are developing a Fith Generation bird to compete with our Raptor. How can this possible? Arent we the most technological advanced air force?

Hola amigo ~

To answer the question the best I can at this moment, I made a quick google search and found this on CIA factbook: "Foreign exchange reserves grew from $12 billion in 1999 to almost $600 billion by end July 2008, which include $200 billion in two sovereign wealth funds: a reserve fund to support budgetary expenditures in case of a fall in the price of oil..."

In a snapshot, that, along with the fact that the country you mention had the 6th largest GDP 'purchasing power parity' ranking for 2008 (just behind UK and well ahead of France), gives deeper insight into the broader valuation of things. (rather than just merely a 3rd world nation as you say, etc)

But in a more detailed analysis, one could conclude: when compared to western-socialist oriented US, Japan, Germany, UK and France one can notice the massive social costs liable to those govts in order to sustain their respective well-fare societies. In the case of other, non-western major powers, those relative (and absolute) social costs/expenditures don't reflect on a similar modern scale of demands.

Of course... where there's a will, there's a way kind-of-element to be factored in too. The resurgent vestiges of a strategic, counter-west/US, cold-warrior ideology has actively sought to regain counter-superiority for at least the past 10-12 yrs.

Forget PAK-FA. Everything regarding this plane is just somewhat of always postponed Russian air dominance plan. They just do not have enough tecnological resources at the moment:
- Zhuk-AE AESA for Mig-35 is still in development and nobody knows when it will enter serial production
- Irbis-E PESA for Su-35BM is still in development and also nobody knows when it will enter serial production
- AL-117 engines, that managed to do some supercruise during SU-35BM test are catching fire easily, as recent lost of one of the three flying SU-35BM aircraft has shown

So, do they have anything available for fitting a true 5th generation aircraft with at the moment? It seems, they don't.

skyhigh wrote:

At least they have the technological know-how and the infrastructure.

No they don't otherwise they would have had a 5th gen fighter flying in the same time frame the Raptor was.

saintwarrior wrote:

Forget PAK-FA. Everything regarding this plane is just somewhat of always postponed Russian air dominance plan. They just do not have enough tecnological resources at the moment:
- Zhuk-AE AESA for Mig-35 is still in development and nobody knows when it will enter serial production
- Irbis-E PESA for Su-35BM is still in development and also nobody knows when it will enter serial production
- AL-117 engines, that managed to do some supercruise during SU-35BM test are catching fire easily, as recent lost of one of the three flying SU-35BM aircraft has shown

So, do they have anything available for fitting a true 5th generation aircraft with at the moment? It seems, they don't.

This, this is a far more realistic 'non fanboy' look at RuAF airpower today. I get fed up with people (not here on this forum) claiming Russia has all this top stuff whilst not realising that most of it consists of half finished prototypes and test systems that date back decades.
At least no-one here has yet to show us the Mig-144 or Su-37 failures and claim them to be 5th gen fighters as so many try to do elsewhere (i'm looking at you YouTube).
I wouldn't mind betting that the PAk-FA is only ever ordered in very small numbers through cost reasons, perhaps 50 aircraft and i'm pretty sure if the plane turns out to be a Turkey (it's presently a Dodo) then Russia will simply claim it "was a tech demonstrator all along and never intended for serial production"....

Last edited by saintwarrior on May 19, 2009 - 01:23 PM; edited 2 times in total

They cannot show even a mockup, or something like that to journalists. However, their defence officials say: "We have seen a pre-production airframes ready for testing at Komsomolsk on Amur plant". The PAK-FA story is turning more and more into a comedy, that even hard-blooded russian patriots laugh at.

But reality remains the same - Pogosian (Chairman of Sukhoi Corporation) and other chiefs in russian aircraft industry were making easy money selling Flanker derivatives to China, India, Venezuela, Malaysia for the last 18 years. They and their lobbysts brought their rivals - the MIG Corporation nearly into a bankrupt position. They stopped any possible inventions and breakthoughs with loud statements "Su-27 is the world's premier aircraft". And what are the results?

Russian military has 2 (two) regiments of upgraded Su-27SMs, couple Mig-31BMs and ten Su-25SMs. Did you see what russian planes were dropping when they flew CAS missions during August 2008 war in Georgia? GBUs? JDAMs? Or something like that? No. FFARs from soviet time stores. You can see this here (modernized SU-25SM conducts CAS during war in Georgia, August 2008):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXcN25Imxm4

What's a FFAR?

Google is your friend

2 seconds search...FFAR -Folding-Fin Aircraft Rocket
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusr ... ckets.html

saintwarrior wrote:

Russian military has 2 (two) regiments of upgraded Su-27SMs, couple Mig-31BMs and ten Su-25SMs. Did you see what russian planes were dropping when they flew CAS missions during August 2008 war in Georgia? GBUs? JDAMs? Or something like that? No. FFARs from soviet time stores. You can see this here (modernized SU-25SM conducts CAS during war in Georgia, August 2008):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXcN25Imxm4

Good lord that looks like a WW2 action tape converted into colour! I'm willing to bet that non of those rockets hit anywhere near there inteded target!
Also didn't the RuAF lose some 22 aircraft over Georgia too, including a Tu-22 flown by an 'elite instructor pilot' ?

saintwarrior wrote:

They cannot show even a mockup, or something like that to journalists. However, their defence officials say: "We have seen a pre-production airframes ready for testing at Komsomolsk on Amur plant". The PAK-FA story is turning more and more into a comedy, that even hard-blooded russian patriots laugh at.

I'm willing to bet the PAK-FA could well be e a Flanker altered for LO properties, think F-15 Silent Eagle but a Flanker version, canted tailfins, a bit of RAM and RAS here and there and a weapons bay or two tacked on somewhere. It really is the running joke it seems in the worlds fighter league at the moment, I wonder when the first flight is going to be delayed again.

Unconfirmed losses are something about 18-20 fixed wing aircraft during that war. TU-22M3R was flying a recon mission trying to find out locations of Georgian SAMs (cause Russian Air Force has no modern UAVs for these purposes) as they used ukrainian passive "Kolchuga" ESM systems for search and track and turned on their radars only for final target aquisition and guidance. Backfire was downed by also ukrainian BUK-M1 SAM. That aircraft was the only one in Russian Air Force deployed from Achtubinsk test & training center. I've readen on russian military forums that officers of their tactical combat airforce units (SU-24 and SU-25) were complaining of severe loses and casualities during that war.

Many aircraft returned to their bases in such condition:

The failure of Russian Air Force in Georgia is confirmed by such fact, that all georgian stationary artillery and support units returned safely to Georgia from their assault positions (for example, DANA howitzers), cause nobody was dealing (or simply cannot deal) with them.

shep1978 wrote:

I'm willing to bet the PAK-FA could well be e a Flanker altered for LO properties

Flanker's chassis has a construction that does not allow fitting of "F-15 styled" CFTs and weapon bays as well. The middle section between engine air intakes or central spine horde (like they did in Mig-35 adding 6.5 tonns of fuel) are the only options.

saintwarrior wrote:

Unconfirmed losses are something about 18-20 fixed wing aircraft during that war. TU-22M3R was flying a recon mission trying to find out locations of Georgian SAMs (cause Russian Air Force has no modern UAVs for these purposes) as they used ukrainian passive "Kolchuga" ESM systems for search and track and turned on their radars only for final target aquisition and guidance. Backfire was downed by also ukrainian BUK-M1 SAM. That aircraft was the only one in Russian Air Force deployed from Achtubinsk test & training center. I've readen on russian military forums that officers of their tactical combat airforce units (SU-24 and SU-25) were complaining of severe loses and casualities during that war.

Many aircraft returned to their bases in such condition:

The failure of Russian Air Force in Georgia is confirmed by such fact, that all georgian stationary artillery and support units returned safely to Georgia from their assault positions (for example, DANA howitzers), cause nobody was dealing (or simply cannot deal) with them.

They're right about complaining... so many losses for such a short war, that's really awful, the Russian Air Force is in really bad shape...

Forum: Technology

Sukhoi PAK FA