Forum: Technology

Kryptid wrote:

Anyone want to hazard a guess on whether or not the PAK FA will have DSI?

Well, China copied it for the J-10B..............Yet, my guess is Russia will instead copy the F-22's fixed design. Shocked

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AJAX, I enjoyed that viewpoint and thanks for article. I've always appreciated the Economist especially back in the 90s. I remember specifically a certain journalist back in the early 90s who rang my bell.

Regarding oil prices and budgets going forward, perhaps various oil-producer personalities will be more careful with rhetoric and revelations of their respective internals vis-a-vis oil prices?

And FWIW, one could assess that an avg of $70-$75 oil over the next couple years will sufficiently enable more energetic defense related endeavors, if the political imperative is there? It really boils down to pre-empting and influencing the various political issues, more than trying to counter a given future opponent's hardware expansion.. IMHO.

geogen wrote:

Regarding oil prices and budgets going forward, perhaps various oil-producer personalities will be more careful with rhetoric and revelations of their respective internals vis-a-vis oil prices?

And FWIW, one could assess that an avg of $70-$75 oil over the next couple years will sufficiently enable more energetic defense related endeavors, if the political imperative is there? It really boils down to pre-empting and influencing the various political issues, more than trying to counter a given future opponent's hardware expansion.. IMHO.

Ya know, given that this kind of stuff has happened for decades (the rhetoric,) you would think that these guys would learn..apparently not.

I also don't think that $70-$75 oil, even sustained, is going to be high enough to quickly revamp the Russian military. Modernize in small steps perhaps, but their economy just isn't dynamic enough. And the place is corrupt corrupt corrupt.

Well we're six months into 2009 now and is there any sign of the PAK-FA yet? I thought it was due to fly about now...

maiden flight scheduled 'till end of the August', but I won't be surprised if it will be postponed to Q3 or even Q4.

I rate the PAK-FA as somewhere between Vaporware and Brochureware..

What the sense in meaningless guesses untill you see it? Bird has some quite interesting aerodynamic features. That's one of the reason why its external shape is classified till the first flight.

People were quite able to see the F-22 and F-35. Grasping at straws here. They have 5 generations of stealth technology to catch up to, not to mention avionics and sensor technology. Will be interesting indeed to see what becomes of PAK-FA. I would love to see it and what it will offer. Seeing is truely believing.

flateric wrote:

What the sense in meaningless guesses untill you see it? Bird has some quite interesting aerodynamic features. That's one of the reason why its external shape is classified till the first flight.

Have you personally seen it, or is that a hunch?

wrightwing wrote:

Have you personally seen it, or is that a hunch?

I was going to ask the same but then realised the answer is obvious, the 'rumour mill'

The Russians designed and built the Mig 1.42 and Su-47 as Raptor(ski) beaters. The Russians must have come to a decision that the AC were not going to be able to compete against the F-22. The hype at the time was that they were the answer to the F-22, and now are considered technology demonstrators. They could have demonstrated those technologies on a much smaller scale, and the Mig flew so little.

The PAK-FA will undoubtedly be an AC made from lessons learned and maybe like old times taking the lead of the US aircraft design. Twenty years of aircraft design and technology have passed since the YF-22 first flew, so the Russians have the advantage of time, to develop something better and or comparable. They can and have designed very capable AC, but have not been able to take a leap ahead of western design.

Aerodynamics is not the driving force in AC design like it was during the teen series AC. A balance had to be struck between stealth and aerodynamics, FCS and computing power, EW and super cruise engines, then the PAK-FA will be second class. Somewhere between the F-35 and the F-22, and that's pretty good.

shep1978 wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

Have you personally seen it, or is that a hunch?

I was going to ask the same but then realised the answer is obvious, the 'rumour mill'

Correct. The main difference is the source of rumours.
Say, I've seen a couple of hundreds of preliminary PAK-FA iterations from early 00s. Pretty sure that what I've seen was dropped at early stage.

Those who directly involved, are keeping lips pretty tight, and that's what your country wants from you.

flateric wrote:

What the sense in meaningless guesses untill you see it? Bird has some quite interesting aerodynamic features. That's one of the reason why its external shape is classified till the first flight.

I have a feeling it's "interesting aerodynamic features" are somehow going to look very similar to the F-22's. Sort of like every Russian fighter aircraft has stolen major design components from Western aircraft over the last 40 years.

Also, the Russians have a history over the last 40 years of copying American designs, but not quite figuring out all the intricacies, thus they end up as capable aircraft, but slighty larger, slightly heavier, and slightly less capable as a result.

IMO, it'll probably be a Paper Tiger. It's specs will look good on paper and the promises will be HUGE, but once it's real capabilities are understood, and better yet, its weaknesses, it will be pretty obvious that it lags behind Western standards in a few key areas.

Quote:

Sort of like every Russian fighter aircraft has stolen major design components from Western aircraft over the last 40 years.

"Stolen" seems like something of an unfair word. It's probably more correct to say that aerodynamic structures and design principles like strakes, VG inlets and wing-body blending are "discovered" more than they are "invented". Researchers simply discover that designing a structure in a specific way has a particular aerodynamic effect. They didn't invent the aerodynamic effect itself. Sure, if one manufacturer sees that another manufacturer has developed an aircraft with specific beneficial aerodynamic features it's only natural for them to want to implement those features in their own design. Trying to gain the same airflow properties in a completely different structure for the sake of being original is fairly wasteful in terms of R&D.

Going by that, one could say that the United States "stole" the flying wing design from the Germans with the B-2 and the swept wing design for the F-86. Everybody is influenced by everyone else. Society is more efficient that way.

Don't get me wrong here, I think PAK-FA has a less than stellar chance of becoming a production fighter, if it ever flies. Some seem to think the Russians can build something to compete with the F-22, those need to tap their heels together three times. However, if they can build something that has an RCS of >0.1m2 a functional AESA and even a limited super cruise with internal weapons it would be a pain in the a$$ to deal with. It doesn't need to be some quantum leap in aircraft design, if it can barely limp into the 5th gen class, it will require a considerable amount of resources to deal with. Two Cents

Forum: Technology

Sukhoi PAK FA