F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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wrightwing
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Posted: May 29, 2009 - 03:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 23, 2008 - 04:22 PM
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inf1kek wrote:
its 0.9 for РВВ-АЕ (R-77M).
Source?
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But anyway, Irbis-E will detect F-18 with 1m2 RCS from 300km.
And how far away do you think the F-18 would detect the Flanker if it was emitting on high power?(>300km)
The Superhornet is <1m2 by the way from the frontal aspect. |
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Sponsor
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Posted: Feb 10, 2012 - 12:30 AM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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wrightwing
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Posted: May 29, 2009 - 04:00 PM
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Elite 1K

Joined: Oct 23, 2008 - 04:22 PM
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| [quote="saintwarrior"]
inf1kek wrote:
its 1m2 for Su-35BM, cos its using composite mats
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Composite mats or anti radar covering do not reduce the RCS significantly. Comparing with F-18E/F Super Hornet SU-35BM has got numerous weak spots in terms of RCS:
1. Straight line engine air intakes, which are not shielded and "S" formed like that was done on Super Hornet
2. It has a terrifically big nose section as all the rest russian aircraft.
3. It does not have a special airframe edging, that reduces RCS like in F-18E/F Super Hornet.
4. The RCS of SU-27 Flanker is something about 15 m2 so it is just impossible to decrease it 15 times just using anti-radar covering and you must take into consideration the fact, that payloaded Flanker will have even bigger RCS.
And remember a reduction from 15m2 to 1m2 is more than a 15x reduction, which makes your point even stronger. |
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Pilotasso
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Posted: May 29, 2009 - 06:51 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: Oct 29, 2006 - 03:35 AM
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inf1kek wrote:
Pilotasso, i have nothink to say to you, because you have no idea what are you talking about, pak-fa concept art? ha-ha.
and by the way, RCS is not MAIN tech. spect in plane.
You need a serious update or a reality check, or both.
All you speak of are prototypes or hardware not yet in production.
PAK-FA is untill now vapourware, fanfare of an industry desperate to show something new. |
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wrightwing
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Posted: May 29, 2009 - 07:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 23, 2008 - 04:22 PM
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Pilotasso wrote:
inf1kek wrote:
Pilotasso, i have nothink to say to you, because you have no idea what are you talking about, pak-fa concept art? ha-ha.
and by the way, RCS is not MAIN tech. spect in plane.
You need a serious update or a reality check, or both.
All you speak of are prototypes or hardware not yet in production.
PAK-FA is untill now vapourware, fanfare of an industry desperate to show something new.
More research, and fewer youtube airshow videos would do him good. |
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inf1kek
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Posted: May 29, 2009 - 10:01 PM
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Newbie

Joined: May 29, 2009 - 12:13 AM
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15 m2 RCS? You got to be kidding me, su27 rcs is 3m2.
R77m in production btw, its just renamed. |
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wrightwing
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Posted: May 29, 2009 - 11:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 23, 2008 - 04:22 PM
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inf1kek wrote:
15 m2 RCS? You got to be kidding me, su27 rcs is 3m2.
R77m in production btw, its just renamed.
That's awfully wishful thinking for an aircraft that had no RCS reduction included in its design. It hasn't been until recently that any sort of reductions have been made, and there's only so much you can do by slapping on RAM.
The Superhornet's reduction came from physically redesigning parts of the aircraft along with the use of RAM. |
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Code3
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Posted: May 30, 2009 - 07:04 AM
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Joined: Jul 11, 2008 - 03:45 AM
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inf1kek wrote:
15 m2 RCS? You got to be kidding me, su27 rcs is 3m2.
Sorry, but this quote is wrong. First, whoever said the Flanker's RCS was 15m2 was being much, much too kind. The Flankers RCS is SIGNIFICANTLY larger than this. But to claim that it's 3m2...that's laughable. Add to that the fact that it'll be carrying all those Russian missiles famous for having every possible thing protruding and every crazy angle imaginable, and you've only compounded your problem. A clean Su-27 is a barn door, a combat loaded Su-27 is the whole freaking barn.
To say the Su-35's RCS is going to be 1m2...WTF? It's not even possible for that airframe to be close to 1m2. If you actually knew what the RCS of the Su-27 is you would understand why this claim is so outrageous. You can't trust everything you see posted on the YouTube vids.
Also, to clear up another thing, going from 15m2 to 1m2 is technically a 15x reduction, true. However, this does not translate into 1/15th of the detection range. As a general rule-of-thumb, you need to reduce the RCS by a magnitude of 10 in order to cut detection ranges in half. For instance, you would detect a 100m2 target twice as far out as a 10m2 taret, which you would detect twice as far out as a 1m2 target. |
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em745
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Posted: May 30, 2009 - 08:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 18, 2007 - 09:28 AM
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Code3 wrote:
A clean Su-27 is a barn door, a combat loaded Su-27 is the whole freaking barn.
That would make a nifty sig quote.  |
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VarkVet
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Posted: May 30, 2009 - 11:01 AM
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Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 04:31 AM
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Can Sukhoi PAK FA do a Split-S at Supersonic Speeds?
The Split S is an air combat maneuver mostly used to disengage from combat. To execute a Split S, the pilot half-rolls his aircraft inverted and executes a descending half-loop, resulting in level flight in the exact opposite direction at a lower altitude.
The Split S is taught to be used in dogfighting when the pilot has the opportunity to withdraw from battle. Contrary to popular belief, this maneuver is almost never used to evade target-locked air-to-air missiles. However, it can be an effective tactic to prevent an enemy behind (between eight o'clock and four o'clock positions) from gaining a missile lock-on while one is disengaging from a fight.
The Split S maneuver is contrasted with the Immelmann turn, which is an ascending half-loop that finishes with a half-roll out, resulting in level flight in the exact opposite direction at a higher altitude. The Split S is also called a reversed Immelmann turn, or can be listed with a hyphen as Split-S.
I would say .... Benny Lava says "have you been high today" |
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em745
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Posted: May 30, 2009 - 02:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 18, 2007 - 09:28 AM
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Code3 wrote:
The Flankers RCS is SIGNIFICANTLY larger than this. But to claim that it's 3m2...that's laughable. Add to that the fact that it'll be carrying all those Russian missiles famous for having every possible thing protruding and every crazy angle imaginable, and you've only compounded your problem. A clean Su-27 is a barn door, a combat loaded Su-27 is the whole freaking barn.
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sprstdlyscottsmn
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Posted: May 30, 2009 - 03:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 10, 2006 - 01:24 AM
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| those Archers look like they have an rcs of 1m^2 by themselves! |
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Corsair1963
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Posted: May 30, 2009 - 06:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 19, 2005 - 04:14 AM
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| Which, is why 4th or 4.5 Gen fighters are becoming obsolete.......... |
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Pilotasso
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Posted: Jun 02, 2009 - 02:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 29, 2006 - 03:35 AM
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| ^^^^Interesting view since there are only 2 LO 5 gen aircraft probably for the next 20+ years. |
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AJAX
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Posted: Jun 02, 2009 - 09:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 20, 2004 - 09:02 PM
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Late to the party, and dont exactly have much technical expertise regarding RCS and what have you....but I can tell you that the argument that Russia's coffers are overflowing with oil money is a bit out of date.
Sure, they have made some coin in the last few years, but they, just as in Venezuela, have been spending it on social programs to keep the population 'happy.' Almost zero money is being reinvested in the fields, and their production curve trends from the upper left to the lower right...towards the inevitable, undesired, air to ground interface.
Putin went from 'the age of cheap oil is over' to 'the West manipulated oil markets and engineered the crash.' The government has decided to STOP releasing monthly unemployment figures because they were so demoralizing, and they blew a few hundred billion in a failed attempt to prop up the Ruble.
They're not exactly riding high in the saddle is all I'm sayin.
*Edit*
This article from the Economist is a few months old, and while the price of oil is up since then...well, you'll get the picture
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The Kremlin belatedly recognises the full scale of the economic crisis
RUSSIA’S president, Dmitry Medvedev, has taken to giving televised fireside chats about the financial crisis. Not before time. As unemployment spirals, industrial production slumps, inflation gallops, the rouble slides and the budget creaks, ordinary Russians are wondering what is going on. Polls show that many—over half the population—have little idea of what the government is doing to help them.
When Russia’s oil-fuelled economy began to slump last autumn, later than many other countries’, the Kremlin stifled public debate, dismissively blaming America for “infecting” the world. The infection proved catching, though, and soon world oil prices slid and hundreds of thousands of Russians lost their jobs. Peremptory silence no longer works. “It is very important to tell the truth,” Mr Medvedev now tells Russians on state television. The Kremlin has become more candid about the severity of their economic condition. Having spent weeks predicting that the economy would show zero growth or perhaps a small contraction this year, the economy ministry now admits it will “probably” shrink by 2.2%. That, it says, is because investment in 2009 will fall by 14%.
For a country that has boomed for the past eight years, with annual GDP growth reaching 8%, this is a particularly harsh blow. Independent economists think that even a 2.2% contraction in GDP is wildly optimistic. Depending on the price of oil, it could shrink by 5% or even 10% of GDP. The two main stockmarket indices have lost nearly 80% since their peak last year. The rouble has lost more than 30% of its value against the dollar. At the same time the price of food, most of which is imported, has continued to rise.
The falling oil price is causing other problems, too. Officials have said Russia faces a budget deficit this year of around 8%. Mr Putin has spoken of “optimising” the budget. Even the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, which the Kremlin hopes will bring glory and gold, will have its budget cut by 15%. Nevertheless, the belt-tightening has not stopped Russia from doling out billions of dollars’ worth of loans to former Soviet republics such as Kyrgyzstan and Belarus to extend its geopolitical interests.
The Kremlin has also spent over $200 billion of its reserves to cushion the devaluation of the rouble and avoid public panic. It still has more than $380 billion left, the third-largest reserves in the world, prompting a fierce debate over how best to use them. Some, like Moscow’s mayor, Yuri Luzhkov, are frustrated that so much of the money seems to have been held back and want it to be poured into the economy. Others, such as the liberal finance minister, Alexei Kudrin, disagree. About 500,000 Russians are waiting to be paid late wages, which, with inflation running at 13%, are fast diminishing in value. Many more have seen the factories on which their livelihoods depend cutting production or even halting assembly lines. The conveyor belt at the giant Avtovaz car factory, which produces the ubiquitous Lada, has spent much of this year motionless. In January industrial output plummeted by 16%, its steepest fall in years.
Russia’s unemployment rate rose to 7.7% in December, the highest rate since November 2005. That, the government said, meant 5.8m Russians were out of work. The unofficial unemployment rate is, however, much higher and many Russians who say they have jobs are in fact on indefinite unpaid leave. Even oligarchs are feeling the pain. A new rich list published by Finans magazine said the number of dollar billionaires had fallen by more than half to 49 because of the crisis.
There are some signs of discontent. In the far-eastern port of Vladivostok, thousands have taken to the streets to protest against higher import tariffs on second-hand Japanese cars, the sale of which is the backbone of the local economy. In a sign of the Kremlin’s nervousness, riot police from Moscow have been sent to deal with the trouble. Pundits predict more unrest in towns, of which there are many in Russia, that rely entirely on one ailing factory or industry. But so far the signs are limited.
That said, the economic misery may be taking the shine off the stellar ratings of Mr Medvedev and Vladimir Putin, now prime minister, even though opinion polls suggest they still enjoy approval ratings well above 65%. The Kremlin’s obscure politics are stirring too. Some see Mr Medvedev’s new activity as an attempt to pull away from Mr Putin’s influence. Others think the prime minister is pushing him forward to take the opprobrium. Either way, heads have begun to roll. Mr Medvedev has fired four regional governors. More sackings can be expected as the economy sinks.
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Kryptid
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Posted: Jun 03, 2009 - 01:31 AM
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Senior member

Joined: Aug 10, 2008 - 02:16 AM
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| Anyone want to hazard a guess on whether or not the PAK FA will have DSI? |
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