Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

I know that the A-10 is a close air support aircraft and designed to chew up tanks, but humor me a little. What is the most advanced fighter aircraft that the A-10 could consistently defeat in air-to-air combat? The conditions are WVR and gun-only.

*Each engine delivers 9,065 pounds of thrust, with a total thrust of 18,130 pounds. Standard loaded weight is 30,384 pounds. This yields a T/W ratio of 0.597, which is higher than the P-80 (0.427) and MiG-15 (0.544) but less than the MiG-17 (0.630).

*Maximum speed is 439 mph, which is similar to the P-51 (437 mph), but is much less than even the Me 262 (559 mph).

*Rate of climb is 6,000 ft/min, higher than the P-80 (4,580 ft/min), but less than the Mig-15 (9,840 ft/min).

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Another A-10.

OL

I believe at one point or another at various exercises A-10s have taken out both fast jets and helicopters.

You make a good point.

An A-10 armed with all aspect heaters can take out just about anything that gets close enough for him to see it & to use them.

You have to assume your adversary is still carrying his best weapon and fight accordingly unless circumstantially you happen to get close enough to inspect his pylons prior to killing him. This would certainly indicate a high level of situation awareness on your part.

However, the hypothetical included the operative words “consistently” & “with the gun-only”, which puts the A-10 at a distinct disadvantage against anything faster.

I think quite a few older fighters would be just fine here. Helo's not so good.

OL

Quote:

However, the hypothetical included the operative words “consistently” & “with the gun-only”, which puts the A-10 at a distinct disadvantage against anything faster.

So the Warthog probably wouldn't do very well against anything better than the Mustang?

I’m not familiar enough with the P-51’s performance to even concede the A-10 could “consistently” kill him. The max speed you quoted for the A-10 is at sea level and the speed quoted for the P-51 is at 25,000 feet. I’m not sure how they compare when they’re both at the same altitude, but the P-51 definitely “looks” faster. (“Cadillac of the sky”)

Imagine a sphere around the maneuvering A-10 equal to his “effective” air-to-air gun range. If the P-51 could accelerate in and out of this sphere prior to the A-10 bringing his gun to bear, even the Mustang could conduct slashing type attacks. The A-10 has a great instantaneous turn rate, but bleeds a lot of speed in its bat turns, is slow to recover energy and most importantly cannot disengage at will. This is why a high speed, high energy fighter is able to hold him and his monster gun at arms length until the right time to pounce.

The downside for the P-51 is that the 50 cal plinking off the A-10 armor may not have the same desired devastating effect on the Hog that the A-10’s 30mm would have on the vaporized Mustang.

OL

As OL said, the A-10 could really only compete against comparable ground attack or prop planes. Maybe the MiG-15 and F-86, but they're both better with respect to energy. In all likelihood, what a hog driver (other than trying to give the other guy swine flu) would do is "Pray and Spray". That 30mm will gut most jets with a single round so they'll point in the right direction and spray a burst and hope it hits. The rounds would lose energy by the time they got there, but probably stilly be rather effective.

The lesson here is to leaving the ground pounding to the ground pounders.

Can you imagine the GAU-8 turret mounted with helmet sight system for the A-10 driver? Add two heaters and things would be fun to watch. Which reminds me, a few helicopter gun ships have also humbled some fighter jocks, again, at various exercises.

HMCS wouldn't do much good with the GAU-8. The Hog driver still has to point the gun where he wants to shoot. I wouldn't immediately sell the Hog short in a gunfight. It can stay in the weeds if it has to, can turn on a gnat's @$$, and the GAU-8 is such a devastating weapon that it's almost a waste of ammo to shoot in an AA engagement.

Then again, I say ALMOST...If you gotta use it, go for it.

Best bet for a fast mover is to out-climb, and out-accelerate the A-10. Keep moving, and stay out of the GAU-8's effective range.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Quote:

Can you imagine the GAU-8 turret mounted with helmet sight system for the A-10 driver?

No, I really can't.

Unless you're talking about mounting it on a ship:

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

PhillyGuy wrote:

Can you imagine the GAU-8 turret mounted with helmet sight system for the A-10 driver? Add two heaters and things would be fun to watch. Which reminds me, a few helicopter gun ships have also humbled some fighter jocks, again, at various exercises.

I am picturing a sequel to Fire Birds starring Nicolas Cage in another suspense war drama that is so bad it is another unintentional comedy.

Has the A-10 ever had to defend itself from other aircraft in actual combat?

I guess that's where the Sidewinders come in handy.

Guysmiley wrote:

No, I really can't.

That picture does put it into perspective well.

I vaguely remember the A-10 getting some helicopter kills in the first Gulf War. As far as in theory.... I don't see why it couldn't give an F-86 Sabre, MiG-15, or almost any W.W. II piston engine driven fighter a run for its money DOWN LOW! Like TC already mentioned, if a fighter uses its superior climb and altitude (boom and zoom) the A-10 would have serious problems.

If the phrase “a run for its money” means “intimidated and consequently cautious when having a 30 MM gun pointed at or in front of you”, you are correct.

If you mean by this phrase, “consistently able to kill the adversary with the gun”, it is arguable for the A-10 against the adversary aircraft you refer to.

The F-86 or any WWII fighter certainly can’t be compared to a helo. And pretty much all fighters except for the true delta wingers are at their “relative” best in a turning fight below about 10-15,000 feet, not just the Hog.

Being down very low on the deck for the Hog just eliminates the lower 180 degrees worth of sky where the Hog driver has to look to see the guy that’s about to kill him.

All that said, I would have loved to have flown the A-10……in a permissive A2A environment.

The VW picture makes me wonder how many college kids you could cram in a GAU-8.

Can you spot the “fighter” in this picture?

OL

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

A-10 in air-to-air combat