Forum: F-22A Raptor

Beazz wrote:

Follow along long enough Popcorn and you will discover there are those who don't know anything (all the rest of us) and then there is DA. He who knows all. Stroll on over to another site similar to this called StrategyPage. You will find DA in all his know it all glory there as well. That site discusses all things military. Naval ships, subs, missiles etc, you name it. And low and behold there is one guy that is an army truck driver but yet knows more about navy ships then the folks that build them, one guy who knows more about subs then the guys that build them and operate them, more about missiles then...well you get the point right? Guess who that guy is?

He told me once in all his arrogant glory that he couldnt help it if he *knew more then the rest* lol Fortunately for all us, they keep him out of the Pentagon. Although with all his knowledge and expertise I have not figured that one out yet.

And yes Popcorn, DA's opinion IS carved in stone. You will come to learn (he will teach you) HIS opinion is NOT opinion, it is FACT because he knows what he is talking about. You will also come to learn that if you disagree with him long enough he will lose his well mannered, talk down to you politely routine and get short and blunt. He's here to TEACH you and if you don't come around to his obvious better way of seeing things then YOU got a problem.

Beazz

Ding ding ding! You nailed it. It's awfully tiresome having to deal with the attitude that "the only correct conclusion is the one that I have come to, and all others are wrong, and unworthy of consideration."

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wrightwing wrote:

Beazz wrote:

Follow along long enough Popcorn and you will discover there are those who don't know anything (all the rest of us) and then there is DA. He who knows all. Stroll on over to another site similar to this called StrategyPage. You will find DA in all his know it all glory there as well. That site discusses all things military. Naval ships, subs, missiles etc, you name it. And low and behold there is one guy that is an army truck driver but yet knows more about navy ships then the folks that build them, one guy who knows more about subs then the guys that build them and operate them, more about missiles then...well you get the point right? Guess who that guy is?

He told me once in all his arrogant glory that he couldnt help it if he *knew more then the rest* lol Fortunately for all us, they keep him out of the Pentagon. Although with all his knowledge and expertise I have not figured that one out yet.

And yes Popcorn, DA's opinion IS carved in stone. You will come to learn (he will teach you) HIS opinion is NOT opinion, it is FACT because he knows what he is talking about. You will also come to learn that if you disagree with him long enough he will lose his well mannered, talk down to you politely routine and get short and blunt. He's here to TEACH you and if you don't come around to his obvious better way of seeing things then YOU got a problem.

Beazz

Ding ding ding! You nailed it. It's awfully tiresome having to deal with the attitude that "the only correct conclusion is the one that I have come to, and all others are wrong, and unworthy of consideration."

You guys aren't coming up with any conclusions supported by any data. Read through the thread. All you are saying is you want more Raptors and you thnk the secret to making them is gone forever if the line closes but you cannot articulate why. Meanwhile, I can tell you why and have explained how the 187 will be enough, how the lines can be reopened and how warfare has changed. So yes, I'm able to support my conclusions and you are not. It helps to have knowledge of how these things work. And yet you stand bewildered when the SecDef and USAF CoS agree say the same things. Open your eyes.

-DA

Active Member Joined: Jun 01, 2004 - 08:55 AM Posts: 133

DarthAmerica wrote:

You guys aren't coming up with any conclusions supported by any data. Read through the thread. All you are saying is you want more Raptors and you thnk the secret to making them is gone forever if the line closes but you cannot articulate why. Meanwhile, I can tell you why and have explained how the 187 will be enough, how the lines can be reopened and how warfare has changed. So yes, I'm able to support my conclusions and you are not. It helps to have knowledge of how these things work. And yet you stand bewildered when the SecDef and USAF CoS agree say the same things. Open your eyes.

-DA

the fact that you were able to explain your opinion doesn't mean anything. it doesn't mean you're right. it doesn't mean your conclusions are right. and it absolutely doesn't mean that what you said are hard facts. you said it yourself, you were "able to support your conclusions". your conclusions are just that, plain conclusions. it's you who should open your eyes. your so called "knowledge of how these things work" doesn't mean anything to us. you are not an authority regarding these subjects.

furthermore, the SecDef's view to halt f-22 productions is based purely on budget issues. the USAF CoS agrees with him, because he "must", not because he really do. just a year ago, he and donley said that a 381-raptor force is "low risk" and 243, a "moderate risk". now all of a sudden he believes 183 is enough. general corley doesn't agree with them. his letter to senator chambliss proves that.

fretmarks wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

You guys aren't coming up with any conclusions supported by any data. Read through the thread. All you are saying is you want more Raptors and you thnk the secret to making them is gone forever if the line closes but you cannot articulate why. Meanwhile, I can tell you why and have explained how the 187 will be enough, how the lines can be reopened and how warfare has changed. So yes, I'm able to support my conclusions and you are not. It helps to have knowledge of how these things work. And yet you stand bewildered when the SecDef and USAF CoS agree say the same things. Open your eyes.

-DA

the fact that you were able to explain your opinion doesn't mean anything. it doesn't mean you're right. it doesn't mean your conclusions are right. and it absolutely doesn't mean that what you said are hard facts. you said it yourself, you were "able to support your conclusions". your conclusions are just that, plain conclusions. it's you who should open your eyes. your so called "knowledge of how these things work" doesn't mean anything to us. you are not an authority regarding these subjects.

furthermore, the SecDef's view to halt f-22 productions is based purely on budget issues. the USAF CoS agrees with him, because he "must", not because he really do. just a year ago, he and donley said that a 381-raptor force is "low risk" and 243, a "moderate risk". now all of a sudden he believes 183 is enough. general corley doesn't agree with them. his letter to senator chambliss proves that.

If my post don't mean anything to you then why respond to them at all? And you are wrong and do not understand the F-22 decision if you think it's all based on the budget. But again, it's obvious you don't understand this any better than Beazz or Wrightwing. Your own post show that. There is nothing "all of the sudden" about the 243 number and if you paid better attention you would know why.

-DA

OK, enough's enough. This is my last post in this thread. Any further discussion in this vein is a disservice to this terrific forum and its members. I respect all opinions expressed and realize that as strongly as I hold my beliefs, others are entitled to do the same. There is already too much intolerance in this world and I won't be fanning the flames in this forum. regards to all.

DarthAmerica wrote:

Beazz,

Name one contribution or point of debate provided by you in this thread? Other than troll and flame me with your sarcasm, you haven't much to offer this discussion it seems. Would you care to say anything relevant to the topic?

-DA

Oh back to the classic DA bate and switch I see? Maybe YOU should look up the definition of Troll DA. YOU fall into that category more then I ever could. And no, I don't care to repaet any of the many things I have said that I FEEL are relevant and you simply dismissed because you had no answer for them. The same as you have done with many others on here DA.

Beazz

DarthAmerica wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

Beazz wrote:

Follow along long enough Popcorn and you will discover there are those who don't know anything (all the rest of us) and then there is DA. He who knows all. Stroll on over to another site similar to this called StrategyPage. You will find DA in all his know it all glory there as well. That site discusses all things military. Naval ships, subs, missiles etc, you name it. And low and behold there is one guy that is an army truck driver but yet knows more about navy ships then the folks that build them, one guy who knows more about subs then the guys that build them and operate them, more about missiles then...well you get the point right? Guess who that guy is?

He told me once in all his arrogant glory that he couldnt help it if he *knew more then the rest* lol Fortunately for all us, they keep him out of the Pentagon. Although with all his knowledge and expertise I have not figured that one out yet.

And yes Popcorn, DA's opinion IS carved in stone. You will come to learn (he will teach you) HIS opinion is NOT opinion, it is FACT because he knows what he is talking about. You will also come to learn that if you disagree with him long enough he will lose his well mannered, talk down to you politely routine and get short and blunt. He's here to TEACH you and if you don't come around to his obvious better way of seeing things then YOU got a problem.

Beazz

Ding ding ding! You nailed it. It's awfully tiresome having to deal with the attitude that "the only correct conclusion is the one that I have come to, and all others are wrong, and unworthy of consideration."

You guys aren't coming up with any conclusions supported by any data. Read through the thread. All you are saying is you want more Raptors and you thnk the secret to making them is gone forever if the line closes but you cannot articulate why. Meanwhile, I can tell you why and have explained how the 187 will be enough, how the lines can be reopened and how warfare has changed. So yes, I'm able to support my conclusions and you are not. It helps to have knowledge of how these things work. And yet you stand bewildered when the SecDef and USAF CoS agree say the same things. Open your eyes.

-DA

As usual you twist peoples words. Show me where anyone said if the line was closed that the secrets to it would be gone forever? You can't because no one said that. But then again you know that don't ya DA?

And all you have done is become a babbling mouthpiece for your commanders DA. You have not articulated anything. Yea, in your own mind you THINK you have shown all us dummys the light and we are just to dumb to see it. But the reality is you THINK you got all the answers when the truth is you don't. You have explained NOTHING as to how the line could/would be reopened. What you have done is completely ignored what I said about the reaosn it would need to be and the reality of it happenign under those conditions. WE ALL know any line can be reopened with enough money DA. So ya feel better now? We all also know there is MUCH more to it then that and the cold hard reality is once this line is closed, should the need ever arise for more, the time required in order to do it will not allow for it. Your simple mind simply cannot grasp that. So technically, yes it could be reopened, but realistically ( which is what most people care about) it will not!

You have not supported your conclusions to most on this board DA. You have supported your conclusions to YOU!! This nonsense of *you know what you are talking about* means doodly squat to me and most ppl on this board. What you have demonstrated to me is a total lack of the ability to think and that actually scares me being you are in the military. People that act like you get good people killed DA.

Beazz

popcorn wrote:

OK, enough's enough. This is my last post in this thread. Any further discussion in this vein is a disservice to this terrific forum and its members. I respect all opinions expressed and realize that as strongly as I hold my beliefs, others are entitled to do the same. There is already too much intolerance in this world and I won't be fanning the flames in this forum. regards to all.

Personally Popcorn I'd prefer ya not to clam up. I for one enjoy seeing anothers view on something that is not cold hard set in stone that he/she is the only one that has a clue and all the rest are idiots. Please don't let my back and forth with DA discourage you from participating. I enjoy your views and the views of others. DA is just something for me to do when I am bored and his views simply mean nothing to me anymore is all. He's an agenda driven nobody who has never changed his position on here on anything ever, so how can anyone take him serious? I don't.

I do give consideration to yours and all the views of the other board members on here as they offer up an actual view and are open for counter views. Unlike DA who does not offer up an opinion or view but rather a dictorial rant on why we are all stupid and need to just listen to him or else agin, we are just stupid. I simply have no use for his type.

Beazz

Active Member Joined: Jun 01, 2004 - 08:55 AM Posts: 133

DarthAmerica wrote:

If my post don't mean anything to you then why respond to them at all? And you are wrong and do not understand the F-22 decision if you think it's all based on the budget. But again, it's obvious you don't understand this any better than Beazz or Wrightwing. Your own post show that. There is nothing "all of the sudden" about the 243 number and if you paid better attention you would know why.

-DA

you and your egocentric remarks, DA. just because i, and most others in this board, don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that i'm/we're wrong and don't understand the matter. if we're wrong, then somebody gotta fire the commander of USAF ACC, coz he thinks 187 raptors ain't enough and that stopping at 187 puts the military strategy at high risk in the near to mid term. geesh, honestly, what makes you think you would know much better than a 4 STAR GENERAL, CHIEF OF THE USAF AIR COMBAT COMMAND?

i never said that the 243 figure was "all of a sudden". read my post again and try to understand a little a better.

You aren't even getting the context of that statement correct. Nevermind the motive...

...oh well, agree to disagree.

-DA

Active Member Joined: Jun 01, 2004 - 08:55 AM Posts: 133

DarthAmerica wrote:

You aren't even getting the context of that statement correct. Nevermind the motive...

...oh well, agree to disagree.

-DA

again, because i disagree it means i'm not getting it? you really have a one track mind, don't you DA? your context is very clear and it goes like this......."i have my own opinion and conclusions. anyone who disagrees either doesn't understand or is just completely wrong."

fretmarks wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

You aren't even getting the context of that statement correct. Nevermind the motive...

...oh well, agree to disagree.

-DA

again, because i disagree it means i'm not getting it? you really have a one track mind, don't you DA? your context is very clear and it goes like this......."i have my own opinion and conclusions. anyone who disagrees either doesn't understand or is just completely wrong."

Welcome to the world of those who have figured DA out Fretmarks. Anyone who follows his style knows full well how he behaves. He moves onto a site and comes across as mild mannered with a *view* on subjects. He then progresses to literally *take over* sites with his as you put it *he has his opinion and it is the only one that counts and if you do not agree then you just DON'T GET IT and basically are stupid and he knows all this because, well, he just knows about these things! lol One of my favorite DA quotes is: I have clearly shown and articulated.... lol I laugh because he actually believes it when he says it. When in most cases he hasn't shown anything. But yet he has convinced himslef how clear and articulate he is and just cannot figure out how the rest of the ignorant masses just cannot or will not grasp his obvious superior knowledge. Gawdddddd

I mean staff sergeants in the army now days are well versed and have access to everything from nuclear reactors to the ***** life of a honey bee and everything in between which is includes but not limited to top secret info on world class one of a kind fighter jets, etc.. Just ask DA. He'll tell ya because, well, he knows what he's talking about and By golly you had better trust what he says because he actually has done it all and seen it all.

In most circles, people like DA are know as an arrogant A**. Somehow I think if DA knew half as much as he thinks he does he would not be on multiple web sites nonstop chastising the ignorant masses, but rather would be some place that actually had some power actually putting all his vast knowledge to work. But he's not at that place is he? Nope, he lives on multiple webb sites insulting the ignorant masses daily. Gee, guess someone else maybe has him figured out as well huh?

Just my most humble take on the Master of the Military DA.

Beazz

This isn't just about politics. It has a political component and an economic component. Fact is, no matter how good the F-22 is, it was delivered way over-budget. Part of that cost-per-plane inflation has been due - you guessed it - because of politics. It's become a vicious circle - the program was slowing a bit, cost overruns, the end of the Cold War; then politicians said "We don't need so many" and cut the numbers, which cut the total cost somewhat, but individual planes became more expensive. The greater the cost per plane, the less support the F-22 got, and production was cut and cut again - leading to an ever increasing trend in cost per plane. We are at the end of the rope I guess, and we're just gonna have to bite the bullet on this one.

in addition to politics and economics, there is also the reality that the threats that dictated the original estimate numbers do not exist anymore. In other words, the situation that dictated those numbers no longer exist. That means it makes sense to reevaluate the totals. All of these things play a part. Politics, economics and actual demand.

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

in addition to politics and economics, there is also the reality that the threats that dictated the original estimate numbers do not exist anymore. In other words, the situation that dictated those numbers no longer exist. That means it makes sense to reevaluate the totals. All of these things play a part. Politics, economics and actual demand.

-DA

You are right in saying that some of the threats (mainly the Soviet Union) don't exist anymore. But Russia is selling relatively advanced fighter aircraft to whomever will buy them. Hell, even Chavez in Venezuela has Su-27 variants, and he's right in our back yard! I'm not saying Venezuela is a threat; what I'm saying is, anybody with a buck can put up an advanced IDS with SAM's and enough good (not necessarily great) fighters to make a conflict prolonged and bloody. Nobody in their right minds would go to war with the USA and hope to come out on top. But that doesn't mean that if something happens we will just roll over them. The F-22 problem is a nice example of that: In numbers they will have an immediate effect. In low numbers however, it's going to be a challenge because commanders will have to prioritize targets. That will either prolong the conflict or make more vulnerable aircraft exposed to advanced threats - or both. Another problem is attrition. One F-16 loss is not so bad in the grand scheme of things - however one F-22 loss is very bad, because of how expensive the aircraft is and how few there are. Pilot losses are even worse, regardless of what plane they were flying. So by virtue of there being less F-22's to take out the IDS, you will expose more pilots lives.

Remember, the USA cannot predict what wars it will fight in the future. Someone may attack us and we'd have to respond. Predictions about how wars will be fought are more often wrong than they are right - a good example is the dependance on missles only by American aircrews trying to shoot down North Vietnamese MiGs at the beginning of Vietnam. Countries are keen to prepare for the worst case scenario, not the best. To think that we are on top of the world and no one will challenge us is a bit arrogant to say the least.

I'd like to see at least 250 F-22's, but I doubt it will happen.We have quite a financial crisis in our hands and I don't think it would be wise to argue for more than 250.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 vs. Congress