Forum: F-22A Raptor

outlaw162 wrote:

If you read your own posts, you should be able to understand why "they" can't stand us.

Just in case, I will lock my door tonight.

OL

Sorry Outlaw but simply calling a spade a spade is the only way to be. To try and now blame *me* for the way *they* feel is ridiculous. Sorry, but AMERICA is NOT responsible for these fanatics and the way they are. THEY are responsible for their own fanatic behavior. America is NOT repsonsible for these fanatics behavior, THEY are Outlaw!! And I got evey right and duty as an American to stand up and say I don't like it ok!

And no need to lock your door. They have no plans of invading us here in that fashion, yet anyhow. But hey, go tell some of them how sorry you are for being American and even dareing to exist. See how far it gets ya. Obama has got just loads of positive response from all his apoligyzing hasn't he? From where I'm sitting, all the tyrants have become even more emboldened and beligerant then they ever were?

Pathetic, simply pathetic!!

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It's the ignorant actions based upon faulty reasoning, such as lumping all "Muslems" together, that are the reason some of them hate us. It's our constant interference in regional affairs for the past 50 years, almost always to the detriment of it's population, that has made us easy to paint as the villains of the world to the very poor, uneducated people of the region.

Iran's population has shown that the people in the middle east vary just as much in ideas as people everywhere else, so yeah, I'm not too worried about the entire population of the middle-east forming an alliance with everybody else who has the slightest grudge against use. Even then, there's always NATO.

muir wrote:

On a diffrent note in reference to future threats. In the long run China and Russia are far more likely enemies than allies against the US. At the moment there are som co-op between them but that is out of necessity, not that they´re particularly fond of each other. In all likelyhood it´s only a matter of time before Russia is dwarfed by China in almost every way if that´s not even the case today. What Russia got is resources and space, the two things China lacks the most n´are, or at least will, be in desperate nedd of, and they share a land border. You do the math...

The most likely "high-endish" threats in my book would be a revolution in Pakistan that´d install something like the leadership Iran have or even worse, the Taleban. That would in all likelyhood draw India in, how China would react is harder to say. It´d be a bloody mess though.
The other would be change of regime in Riyadh. The royal family is not that popular and the Saudi´s have pretty much every modern western defense-system (oil) money can by including F-15´s and Typhoons. I don+t know how capable they are at using them but they sure got the money to practice if needed.

Just my two cents.

Bravo! It's funny what happens when you just sit back and let people post. 99% of the latest post are from people who don't fully understand what's going on. I don't mean that to be offensive but there is simply no other way to say it. I do appreciate the patriotism but in terms of actually understanding one way or the other the current and projected threat situation as it relates to procurement they are lost in the sauce.

I knew when someone asked what wars were ever lost where one side had air superiority that there is a huge misunderstanding. Heck, even the attempt to define air superiority was bungled up. Not to mention the blanket statements towards Muslims and misunderstanding of the Russian threats.

But again, if people with ZERO experience and/or ZERO study of the situation want to assert their biases then so be it. It merely proves why there are professionals who actually get paid to make these assessments.

Arguments can be made both pro or con with regard to the 60 additional F-22's. Because I can make both, I know that the current decision to not procure beyond 187 is the right choice. The USAF has a whole range of other neglected priorities that will be needed no matter what conflict we get in and if people really understood these issues in proper context asking for 13 billion extra for Raptors would be laughable. The USAF has many times more air to air capability than our nearest competitor and that includes allies.

The idea that all of the sudden Mig and Sukhoi factories will roar to life and pump out several hundred Su-27/Mig-29 variants and that PAK-FA will get into operational service before the F-35 is in full squadron service in multiple allied air forces and being made at the rate of 1 a business day is simply unrealistic.

Similarly, the Idea that nations who are dependent on exports in order to maintain an air force like North Korea, Iran or Venezuela ect. who operate air forces with between one to several dozen interceptors and back them up with S-300s for local defense is capable of fighting the USAF and remaining a coherent fighting force any longer than 48-72 hours is also unrealistic.

People often incorrectly mistake the technological prowess of the USA and Allies as the reason why we had overwhelming success in the air vs Iraq and Serbia. They also often mistake the PREFERENCE of the DoD to initiate campaigns via air power and sustained bombardment prior to commitment of ground components as NECESSITY of the same.

YOu don't dominate an opponent at the platform level. Dominance is systems level.

-DA

Beazz wrote:

Sorry, but AMERICA is NOT responsible for these fanatics and the way they are. THEY are responsible for their own fanatic behavior. America is NOT repsonsible for these fanatics behavior,

As a non American I must say i completely agree with you. Radical Islamists have greivences with just about everyone and everything and will use all sorts of excuses to attack, including the stale "b.. b.. but they're pickin on us" line that Bin Laden and the Iranian leadership are so fond of.
It's not America thats the problem its certain 'brands/strains' of Islam that are the problem and left unchecked they will become an even greater problem. One must bear in mind that not only do Islamic harliners/terrorists have problems with America but pretty much the whole world. The whole religion, well half of it needs a serious reform to say the least.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrori ... rism1.html
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm

shep1978 wrote:

Beazz wrote:

Sorry, but AMERICA is NOT responsible for these fanatics and the way they are. THEY are responsible for their own fanatic behavior. America is NOT repsonsible for these fanatics behavior,

As a non American I must say i completely agree with you. Radical Islamists have greivences with just about everyone and everything and will use all sorts of excuses to attack, including the stale "b.. b.. but they're pickin on us" line that Bin Laden and the Iranian leadership are so fond of.
It's not America thats the problem its certain 'brands/strains' of Islam that are the problem and left unchecked they will become an even greater problem. One must bear in mind that not only do Islamic harliners/terrorists have problems with America but pretty much the whole world. The whole religion, well half of it needs a serious reform to say the least.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrori ... rism1.html
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm

Let me ask you two questions. How much experience do you have with Muslims and in the ME in particular? I've lived among them for several years and have worked directly with them either as college or as liaison for about 6 years total.

The second question is do you have any idea how much effort the USA spends to maintain good public image with Muslims and do you think we would be doing that if there weren't specific grievances and some of them being legitimate?

-DA

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

It's the ignorant actions based upon faulty reasoning, such as lumping all "Muslems" together, that are the reason some of them hate us. It's our constant interference in regional affairs for the past 50 years, almost always to the detriment of it's population, that has made us easy to paint as the villains of the world to the very poor, uneducated people of the region.

Iran's population has shown that the people in the middle east vary just as much in ideas as people everywhere else, so yeah, I'm not too worried about the entire population of the middle-east forming an alliance with everybody else who has the slightest grudge against use. Even then, there's always NATO.

LOL>. yea.. there is always NATO.. again..LOL LOL LOL Puleeezzzzzzz

DarthAmerica wrote:

shep1978 wrote:

Beazz wrote:

Sorry, but AMERICA is NOT responsible for these fanatics and the way they are. THEY are responsible for their own fanatic behavior. America is NOT repsonsible for these fanatics behavior,

As a non American I must say i completely agree with you. Radical Islamists have greivences with just about everyone and everything and will use all sorts of excuses to attack, including the stale "b.. b.. but they're pickin on us" line that Bin Laden and the Iranian leadership are so fond of.
It's not America thats the problem its certain 'brands/strains' of Islam that are the problem and left unchecked they will become an even greater problem. One must bear in mind that not only do Islamic harliners/terrorists have problems with America but pretty much the whole world. The whole religion, well half of it needs a serious reform to say the least.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrori ... rism1.html
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm

Let me ask you two questions. How much experience do you have with Muslims and in the ME in particular? I've lived among them for several years and have worked directly with them either as college or as liaison for about 6 years total.

The second question is do you have any idea how much effort the USA spends to maintain good public image with Muslims and do you think we would be doing that if there weren't specific grievances and some of them being legitimate?

-DA

Well personally I got a good dozen years with them on the net and met several of them in person with my wife. I have, and currently maintain a friendship with a good 40-50 Mid East arab/muslems in countrys ranging from Egypt to Saudi Arabia to Iran. So I think I got a better understanding of their mindset then you DA.

I will say that the people I know are not at all radicals. I consider them close enough and kind enough people that I would go meet them with my wife so that should tell you something. But they are not the problem DA. Even these friends have members within their own familys that cannot stand the west. I know this because they tell me this. I can also tell you the Muslem crowd from about 27 years old and younger is a completely different crowd then the bunch over that age. The main reason for this is the internet. The younger crowd has had a chance to see/meet people from the so called evil west and they simply do not think we are so terrible as their parents in many cases have taught them. They actually *envy* our way of life in many many regards. Mater fact, most of them ALL wish to leave their homelands and come live here and suprisingly wish to marry non-arab men. Being Muslem is NOT a requirement either. They will marry a Christian no problem.

Answer to your second question is nope I have no idea how much effort we spend, although I consdider it way to much. And YES I do think we would be doing it regardless if they had legitimate gripes or not. The biggest gripe they ALL have is our friendship with Israel. You can agree or not, I don't care. But that is the jest of it. Of course, we could call their bluff and completely rid ourself of Israel and then they would I gurantee you come up with another reason to hate us. Bottom line DA is the radical faction of Islam will NEVER be happy until we accept their religion. Thats the cold blooded facts of life. Maybe that's ok with you, it's NOT ok with me.

Beazz

DarthAmerica wrote:

[

Let me ask you two questions. How much experience do you have with Muslims and in the ME in particular?

-DA

I could spin a yarn and say i have lived there but I will admit I havn't, however, to think one has to have lived somewhere to know whats going on is flawed logic. I do however know alot about my local Muslim comunity and i have absolutely nothing good to say about them to be honest, call me strange but i simply doin't like the way the regard women as second rate citizens and in some circumstances as little more than animals and yes i have witnessed this many times.
Aside from my personal experience with Musilms I thinks in the big picture of things it's pretty damn fair to say the religion has serious, very serious problems that needs fiixng, and yes of course every religion has flaws that needc fixing but in this are Islam stands head and shoulders above the rest of the bunch.
Lets face it shall we, the world (yes the world because it is not just America who Islam has problems with but France, Germany,Russia, China, UK, Spain, Italy etc etc not to mention foiled plots) has no great pain in the neck from any other religion at the moment except Islam. No other relgion endorses and delights in violence like certain (popular) muslim 'brands' do.
In short, it's no good keep apolagising for their (Certain strains of Islams) foul and disgusting antics just as defending the Nazi idealogy is futile (they both share the same goals BTW and were pretty much allied in WW2 but you're a smart guy I'm sure you already knew that)

Ok so basically you two don't understand Islam in the context of combat operations in the ME. You also don't understand or differentiate between government and public sentiment towards the United States. There is nothing wrong with Islam period. Only a very few Muslims harbor I'll will towards the West. And many of those because of deliberate manipulation. Much of the grief has to do with cultural and political differences rather than religious. There were times when Christianity was used the same way. In some cases it still is just not on as wide of a scale. This is a complicated issue well beyond the scope of this discussion.

These anecdotes still fail to convince me that we're all going to die at the hands of "Muslem" radicals. Obviously, they'll remain a threat for the forseeable future, but they certainly aren't the Armageddon force some paint them as. Just look at Iran- the people are fighting against theocracy. Radicals are in the minority, and it should be our goal to make that minority as small as possible.

Christianity was once a radical religion, too. It was only recently that there was any major theological change. Remember the Crusades? Y'know, when we attacked them for being evil infidels on our holy land? Ever heard of the "Inquisition?"

Anyway, someone needs to close this thread, it's managed to go from F-22 vs F-35 to Who-Knows-More-Muslims.

Darthamerica: Clearly you dont understand the theological nature of Islam, you shoud read its historical origins, read the Coran, and you will discover that it is something completly different from christianity. Islam is a religion were the concept of love differs greatly from christianity -for example-

Islam is something we shoud be worried about: In Europe were there are so many living (muslims) they will be -in the future, probably- the majority, because they give birth more than we, and in time maybe here in the US, the same thing will happen. So, I dont know about all of you guys, but I wouldnt want my country under a Theocratical rule!!!

So it really comes down to family planning, not F-22's.

"I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their $exual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature."

OL

Outlaw: Dont get me wrong, we need the F-22!!! At the same time, we have an enemy, an enemy within, an enemy that as we speak could be planning at our own soil to exterminate us. We cant forget what they did to us and how they did it. The US is the backbone and example of todays modern democratical goverments, because of that we have to maintain our military might as second to none, and the Raptor is one of the elements to do just that.

calel wrote:

Darthamerica: Clearly you dont understand the theological nature of Islam, you shoud read its historical origins, read the Coran, and you will discover that it is something completly different from christianity. Islam is a religion were the concept of love differs greatly from christianity -for example-

No, I'm afraid that's you. But it would be inappropriate for me to Preach scripture to you here. Let's just stick to things as they apply to the F-22. it's age to say radical Islam generally doesn't fall into the F-22's threat matrix and the DoD has quite public in that regard considering try would not allow the F-22 to be deployed in support of the GWOT.

-DA

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 vs. Congress