Forum: F-22A Raptor

popcorn wrote:

I have to agree with Beazz. All those thousands of suppliers providing components for the F-22 will have switched production to other stuff or willhave gone out of business if the Raptor line shuts down. No way they're carrying excess inventory in the event that they decide to build new jets years into the future.

OK well it sounds like someone has never been a program manager before. Correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise from experience I can tell you that the critical issue with something like this is finance. If the contractor gets the money they can make the resources and people available. Especially since they already understand the process. So again, it's an issue of urgency and money. That's it.

-DA

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Well, I thought that the point here is that money is in short supply, otherwise just buy more Raptors now, why wait. But the reality is funds are scarce, suppliers need to be assured of continuous orders many months or years in advance otherwise they have to start planning for an ordewrly transition to a new product line. They just can't shut down production then have their facilities idle as they consider what replacement product to manufacture. Doesn't work that way. Oh, by the way, you do come across as a bit patronizing.

DarthAmerica wrote:

popcorn wrote:

I have to agree with Beazz. All those thousands of suppliers providing components for the F-22 will have switched production to other stuff or willhave gone out of business if the Raptor line shuts down. No way they're carrying excess inventory in the event that they decide to build new jets years into the future.

OK well it sounds like someone has never been a program manager before. Correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise from experience I can tell you that the critical issue with something like this is finance. If the contractor gets the money they can make the resources and people available. Especially since they already understand the process. So again, it's an issue of urgency and money. That's it.

-DA

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

Making comments about other posters' professional backgrounds is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I may not have an aerospace or defense background, but I have managed sizeable IT projects, dealt with budgets, managed resources.. but I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. That's not the reason I joined this forum.

Bottomline is you're entitled to you opinion but its just an opinion, nothing more or less. And it definitely isn't carved in stone. It should be respected, debated on its merits and judged for whatever value it may have. The same applies to ALL opinions. You can be blunt but keep out the personal stuff please.. it just clouds the discussion.

DarthAmerica wrote:

popcorn wrote:

I have to agree with Beazz. All those thousands of suppliers providing components for the F-22 will have switched production to other stuff or willhave gone out of business if the Raptor line shuts down. No way they're carrying excess inventory in the event that they decide to build new jets years into the future.

OK well it sounds like someone has never been a program manager before. Correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise from experience I can tell you that the critical issue with something like this is finance. If the contractor gets the money they can make the resources and people available. Especially since they already understand the process. So again, it's an issue of urgency and money. That's it.

-DA

Finance is ONE critical issue DA. So stop trying to tap dance around the fact there is more to it then just throw the cash at it and presto, it will be. lol The bottom line is EXACTLY as I said it is. Although IF enough cash is thrown at it, YES it can get done. BUT, it will still take years to start something as big and complex as the F22 line back up and you know it to.

The point is NOT can it be done. But realistically can it be done in a timely enough matter to matter. The answer is NO it cannot Mr project manager. Thw war will be long since over and you know full well that is the ONLY possible reason congress would EVER consider restarting the F22 line. Again, stop tap dancing around the real issue with *technical* points that mean absolutely nothing pertaining to real world reality.

I swear DA, you give men and women in the military a bad name. Your generic, everything is black and white simple mindset is what a lot of people think of our men and women in uniform and people like you simply reinforce that belief. In your mind it's all the same. You can start up an F22 flight line as simply as you could a nail making factory as long as you got the cash. I'd be willing to bet that's why you've never been in charge of anything even remotley the size and complexity of an aircraft fighter line.

And you simply cannot ever admit your wrong. When cornered you resort to the DA knows all mentality and throw in some *technicalitys* that may be true from purely a technical standpoint but you know full well they misrepresent what is trying to be discussed. This F22 restart is a classic example. No one says it could NEVER be restarted no matter what and with unlimited funds. Thats not the point and you know it. It cannot however be restarted in a timely enough manner to be of use in the event of war and you know that as well. But you simply will not admit it. You instead go on and on with your arrogant condescending, patronizing tone that does nothing but cause many to frown on our military types.

Like I have said before. I feel sorry for you, even though I can't stand you.

Beazz

DarthAmerica wrote:

edwin3060 wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

Look at the status of the Rafale program. Some 30 years after breaking from Eurofighter and that aircraft is still in gestation with Dassault not even able to give them away.

-DA

Factually incorrect-- the Rafale is further along it's developmental pathway than the Typhoon, and in fact beat the Typhoon in Singapore's NGF evaluation (before losing to the F-15SG), probably because it had already integrated full air-to-ground payloads while the Eurofighter consortium was bickering over what radar to install or how many fighters to buy. In fact in the time it took Eurofighter to bring the basic Typhoon to IOC, Dassault had already developed a navalised version of the Rafale.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is great despite it's developmental program, which is, in fact, one of the examples of what the F-35 should NOT do. Similarly, the Eurofighter programme illuminates certain pitfalls that could yet potentially increase the price of the F-35, even at this stage of development, whereas the F-22 is 'safe', at least in terms of risk of rise in production costs. The fact that the Rafale can't sell has nothing to do with the developmental program of the aircraft.

No, you missed my point.

-DA

Which is? All I see is that you are basing this particular argument on a flawed assertion-- which is the Rafale's supposed developmental problems vs the Eurofighter is due to the French 'go it alone' mentality, vis a vis the Eurofighter Consortium, and extending the analogy to the (purely) American F-22 vs the (International) F-35.

When in reality the Rafale did a lot better developmentally than the Eurofighter, mainly because it wasn't bogged down in international disputes among the partner countries.

If you had another point to make, please, enlighten us.

Last edited by DarthAmerica on Jul 01, 2009 - 05:11 AM; edited 1 time in total

popcorn wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

Making comments about other posters' professional backgrounds is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I may not have an aerospace or defense background, but I have managed sizeable IT projects, dealt with budgets, managed resources.. but I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. That's not the reason I joined this forum.

Bottomline is you're entitled to you opinion but its just an opinion, nothing more or less. And it definitely isn't carved in stone. It should be respected, debated on its merits and judged for whatever value it may have. The same applies to ALL opinions. You can be blunt but keep out the personal stuff please.. it just clouds the discussion.

EDIT: Beazz post speaks for itself.

-DA

popcorn wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

Making comments about other posters' professional backgrounds is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I may not have an aerospace or defense background, but I have managed sizeable IT projects, dealt with budgets, managed resources.. but I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. That's not the reason I joined this forum.

Bottomline is you're entitled to you opinion but its just an opinion, nothing more or less. And it definitely isn't carved in stone. It should be respected, debated on its merits and judged for whatever value it may have. The same applies to ALL opinions. You can be blunt but keep out the personal stuff please.. it just clouds the discussion.

Follow along long enough Popcorn and you will discover there are those who don't know anything (all the rest of us) and then there is DA. He who knows all. Stroll on over to another site similar to this called StrategyPage. You will find DA in all his know it all glory there as well. That site discusses all things military. Naval ships, subs, missiles etc, you name it. And low and behold there is one guy that is an army truck driver but yet knows more about navy ships then the folks that build them, one guy who knows more about subs then the guys that build them and operate them, more about missiles then...well you get the point right? Guess who that guy is?

He told me once in all his arrogant glory that he couldnt help it if he *knew more then the rest* lol Fortunately for all us, they keep him out of the Pentagon. Although with all his knowledge and expertise I have not figured that one out yet.

And yes Popcorn, DA's opinion IS carved in stone. You will come to learn (he will teach you) HIS opinion is NOT opinion, it is FACT because he knows what he is talking about. You will also come to learn that if you disagree with him long enough he will lose his well mannered, talk down to you politely routine and get short and blunt. He's here to TEACH you and if you don't come around to his obvious better way of seeing things then YOU got a problem.

Beazz

Beazz wrote:

popcorn wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

Making comments about other posters' professional backgrounds is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I may not have an aerospace or defense background, but I have managed sizeable IT projects, dealt with budgets, managed resources.. but I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. That's not the reason I joined this forum.

Bottomline is you're entitled to you opinion but its just an opinion, nothing more or less. And it definitely isn't carved in stone. It should be respected, debated on its merits and judged for whatever value it may have. The same applies to ALL opinions. You can be blunt but keep out the personal stuff please.. it just clouds the discussion.

Follow along long enough Popcorn and you will discover there are those who don't know anything (all the rest of us) and then there is DA. He who knows all. Stroll on over to another site similar to this called StrategyPage. You will find DA in all his know it all glory there as well. That site discusses all things military. Naval ships, subs, missiles etc, you name it. And low and behold there is one guy that is an army truck driver but yet knows more about navy ships then the folks that build them, one guy who knows more about subs then the guys that build them and operate them, more about missiles then...well you get the point right? Guess who that guy is?

He told me once in all his arrogant glory that he couldnt help it if he *knew more then the rest* lol Fortunately for all us, they keep him out of the Pentagon. Although with all his knowledge and expertise I have not figured that one out yet.

And yes Popcorn, DA's opinion IS carved in stone. You will come to learn (he will teach you) HIS opinion is NOT opinion, it is FACT because he knows what he is talking about. You will also come to learn that if you disagree with him long enough he will lose his well mannered, talk down to you politely routine and get short and blunt. He's here to TEACH you and if you don't come around to his obvious better way of seeing things then YOU got a problem.

Beazz

And you wonder why I respond to you the way I do? LOL thanks for making my point.

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

popcorn wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

Making comments about other posters' professional backgrounds is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I may not have an aerospace or defense background, but I have managed sizeable IT projects, dealt with budgets, managed resources.. but I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. That's not the reason I joined this forum.

Bottomline is you're entitled to you opinion but its just an opinion, nothing more or less. And it definitely isn't carved in stone. It should be respected, debated on its merits and judged for whatever value it may have. The same applies to ALL opinions. You can be blunt but keep out the personal stuff please.. it just clouds the discussion.

There was nothing personal, I said it was my opinion based on my experience, now unless you have something to say specifically, either agree or disagree and get over it.

-DA

Careful Popcorn...DA is getting upset with you already. You have dared to challenge and openly and publicly disagree with him lol I must say, he's getting testy with you sooner then usual. But he has issued his orders. Get over it!! lol Back to that simplistic soldier boy mindset again huh DA? Next thing you'll be ordering us all to get down and give you 50 huh? lol

Beazz

DarthAmerica wrote:

Beazz wrote:

popcorn wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

Making comments about other posters' professional backgrounds is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I may not have an aerospace or defense background, but I have managed sizeable IT projects, dealt with budgets, managed resources.. but I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. That's not the reason I joined this forum.

Bottomline is you're entitled to you opinion but its just an opinion, nothing more or less. And it definitely isn't carved in stone. It should be respected, debated on its merits and judged for whatever value it may have. The same applies to ALL opinions. You can be blunt but keep out the personal stuff please.. it just clouds the discussion.

Follow along long enough Popcorn and you will discover there are those who don't know anything (all the rest of us) and then there is DA. He who knows all. Stroll on over to another site similar to this called StrategyPage. You will find DA in all his know it all glory there as well. That site discusses all things military. Naval ships, subs, missiles etc, you name it. And low and behold there is one guy that is an army truck driver but yet knows more about navy ships then the folks that build them, one guy who knows more about subs then the guys that build them and operate them, more about missiles then...well you get the point right? Guess who that guy is?

He told me once in all his arrogant glory that he couldnt help it if he *knew more then the rest* lol Fortunately for all us, they keep him out of the Pentagon. Although with all his knowledge and expertise I have not figured that one out yet.

And yes Popcorn, DA's opinion IS carved in stone. You will come to learn (he will teach you) HIS opinion is NOT opinion, it is FACT because he knows what he is talking about. You will also come to learn that if you disagree with him long enough he will lose his well mannered, talk down to you politely routine and get short and blunt. He's here to TEACH you and if you don't come around to his obvious better way of seeing things then YOU got a problem.

Beazz

And you wonder why I respond to you the way I do? LOL thanks for making my point.

-DA

Uhhh.. Hate to burst your bubble DA. It has never crossed my mind why you respond to be in any manner at all. I don't care how you respond. But the arrogance is always astounding I must say. You actually think myself or anyone else on here worrys about what Darth thinks of them. lol. Really, you are actually funny in your own demented sick little pathetic way DA.

Have a good one.

Beazz

Beazz,

Name one contribution or point of debate provided by you in this thread? Other than troll and flame me with your sarcasm, you haven't much to offer this discussion it seems. Would you care to say anything relevant to the topic?

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

popcorn wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

That's because I know what I'm talking about and after explaining it several times to the same people you just have to be blunt.

-DA

Making comments about other posters' professional backgrounds is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I may not have an aerospace or defense background, but I have managed sizeable IT projects, dealt with budgets, managed resources.. but I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you. That's not the reason I joined this forum.

Bottomline is you're entitled to you opinion but its just an opinion, nothing more or less. And it definitely isn't carved in stone. It should be respected, debated on its merits and judged for whatever value it may have. The same applies to ALL opinions. You can be blunt but keep out the personal stuff please.. it just clouds the discussion.

EDIT: Beazz post speaks for itself.

-DA

LOL...

EDIT: DA post speaks for itself. lol

Boy got me there huh DA? lol

Goodnight Beazz. When you're able to make relevant on topic post I'll address them but I'm not about to get into fanboy level discussions on topics I've already covered. You're more than encouraged to read my previous responses since nothing has changed.

-DA

edwin,

I have to say those are some of the 5 most decisive and insightful posts (out of 5) I've ever seen on any forum for that matter re: related F-22 issues. Very interesting contributions. Your out-of-nowhere comments regarding Rafale/EF, while very basic, were actually pretty brilliant and relevant.

Appreciate the intellect and open-mindedness.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 vs. Congress