Forum: Off-topic

Is it possible for an attack helicopter (e.g. AH-64, Tiger, Mi-28 ) to shoot down a jet in air-to-air combat, given its hovering capability, extreme maneuverability and ATGM and AAM armament?

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It's maneuverability isn't THAT "extreme", at least not when compared to a fighter. But, given the precise set of circumstances, I guess it could be "possible".

I can't think of any time that it has occurred, however.

During the Iran-Iraq War, there were two reported cases of an attack helicopter shooting down a jet fighter:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archiv ... 64197.html

Iraqi Mi-24 Hind downed an Iranian F-14.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_214.shtml

An Iraqi Mi-25 (export variant Mi-24) Hind downed an Iranian F-4 with a 9K114 Shturm (AT-6 Spiral) ATGM in A2A mode!

Can you believe that?

Cool. If that's true, then you just answered your own question.

All right, TC.

But I wonder what attack helicopter pilots would normally do when confronted by enemy slow or fast movers?

Would then disengage and run or engage and fight?

In my opinion, they would try to fight, since they cannot outrun, but can outmaneuver.

skyhigh wrote:

I wonder what attack helicopter pilots would normally do when confronted...

We could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you. Let's not discuss tactics here.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

skyhigh wrote:

I wonder what attack helicopter pilots would normally do when confronted by enemy slow or fast movers?

Using the pseudoscience of Hollyweird and flanker fanatics; all a helicopter has to do is slow down to less than about 60 kn; and the helicopter will become “invisible” to the fast movers. Using that “logic/science” helicopters would be invulnerable to fast movers, so it would be a turkey shoot of fast movers for helicopter pilots. Wink

skyhigh wrote:

During the Iran-Iraq War, there were two reported cases of an attack helicopter shooting down a jet fighter.

Can you believe that?

It’s hard to say. While it is possible, I would be skeptical. Just because someone makes some claims (writes a novel, gets some coverage on TV, radio, Internet or in the papers) doesn’t necessarily mean it is true.

Statistics can sometimes be misinformation, particularly in times of war. In the Battle of Britain, Korea and Vietnam, some of the statistics were so wildly exaggerated that there were more claims of kills than there were aircraft sent to the theater. Statistics are usually more wildly exaggerated by fascist and/or tyrannical governments.

TC wrote:

It's maneuverability isn't THAT "extreme", at least not when compared to a fighter.

IMAO For the most part I concur. It’s not like most fast movers can hover; however most fast movers would be more likely to outmaneuver a missile. A helicopter would be much less likely to be able to outmaneuver a missile.

ATFS_Crash wrote:

Using the pseudoscience of Hollyweird and flanker fanatics...helicopters would be invulnerable to fast movers, so it would be a turkey shoot of fast movers for helicopter pilots.

Heck yeah! Nic Cage and Tommy Lee Jones shot down a Draken with Apaches, so it must be true. Laughing

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

I thought Sean Young shot it down with shoulder launched Stinger pulled from the wingtip of a downed Apache? Very Happy

Of course in that movie the MD500 was some kind of super deadly killing machine... Rolling Eyes

An eggbeater's only real defense against a fixed-wing threat would be to try and use terrain to their advantage and continually move into the attacking fighter's turn. You wouldn't want to just sit and hover with your thumb up your rear end. A smart fighter pilot would just extend and toss an AAM at it. I don't know the max range on the M230 or how effective it'd be against fast moving targets, but I'm guessing one round could ruin a fighter's whole week.

Of course, if an EF-111 can score air to air kills, ANYTHING is possible!

Guysmiley wrote:

I thought Sean Young shot it down with shoulder launched Stinger pulled from the wingtip of a downed Apache?

The latest sign that the Apocalypse is upon us...we start analyzing the movie "Firebirds". Laughing

Quote:

Of course, if an EF-111 can score air to air kills, ANYTHING is possible!

Well, the AH-64 and the SuperCobras have Sidewinder capability now, don't they?

Quote:

The latest sign that the Apocalypse is upon us...we start analyzing the movie "Firebirds". Laughing

Didn't they have Sean Connery flying the Loach?

At least I've seen that one--but there are clips of your favorite movie on YouTube--I'm going to sit and watch it soon--I've already seen the part with the vending machine.

Anything can happen out in the battlezone- in Desert Storm, 2 A-10s got A2A kills on helicopters with their cannons- couldn't get their AIM-9s to lock on. Better that they got gun kills though. Cool

Most likely those 2 A2A kills on Iranian jets were caused by stupidity. Basically, if you fly the other aircrafts game instead of your own, you will most likely lose- that is no secret. Wink

I seem to recall a Navy Skyhawk made an A2A kill on a MiG-17 with Zuni rockets During Vietnam, so A2G weaponry can get lucky in the skies as well!

ptplauthor wrote:

there are clips of your favorite movie on YouTube

Clips of MY favorite movie? Nope. Sorry. No vending machine scenes in GoodFellas...

"Now go home and get your f#ckin shine box!"

As for the Warthogs, you have to consider where they were. Broad daylight, down in the mud in Kuwait. I've been to within a few miles of where on of the AA kills occurred, at Ali al-Salem, and I can vouch for how hot it is.

AIM-9s are attracted to a heat source, but when everything around you is 100+ in the shade at dune-top level, sometimes that seeker head can't discern between hot desert sand and the heat source of the chopper engine.

Remember also, that a Tomcat crew did, in fact, acheive an AA kill against a chopper with a 'winder.

Quote:

As for the Warthogs, you have to consider where they were. Broad daylight, down in the mud in Kuwait. I've been to within a few miles of where on of the AA kills occurred, at Ali al-Salem, and I can vouch for how hot it is.

If I was a helo driver, and I heard there were Warthog drivers looking for some A2A action, I'd pick up an AK and go join an infantry unit....that somehow seems safer.

I'd suspect that in a desert environment, since the sand holds on to the heat pretty good the advantage goes to the whirlybird, but what about Europe, where the weapons were originally designed to be used?

Quote:

"Now go home and get your f#ckin shine box!"

I am f#ckin home, and I don't have a f#ckin shine box! Even if I did, I ain't gonna shine your shoes, capiche.

ptplauthor wrote:

what about Europe, where the weapons were originally designed to be used?

Ok, Billy Batts. If there's a heat source, the Sidewinder will find it. Has anyone else ever done the cigarette lighter trick when the 'winders aren't capped?

The target's altitude has a lot to do with it. Sometimes heaters will be confused by the sun, and sometimes they go stupid when close to the ground.

Remember though, that we did acheive several AA kills with 'winders in ODS. Also, what drives those rotor blades is a small jet engine. It produces well more than enough heat from its exhaust to get the AIM-9 to lock on. Even piston engines are hot enough for the AIM-9 to lock onto.

If the fighter stays out of the chopper's launch envelope, the chopper is outclassed.

Forum: Off-topic

Attack helicopter vs. jet dogfight