Forum: Off-topic

What is a flying ace?

A flying ace is a fighter pilot who has shot down at least five enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat.

For example, Erich Hartmann of the Luftwaffe was the world's top scoring flying ace in history with 352 kills; Col. Giora Epstein of the Israeli Air Force was the world's top scoring jet ace with 17 kills; Capt. Joseph C. McConnell of the USAF was America's top scoring jet ace, with 16 MiG-15 kills; Robin Olds of the USAF, commanding an RAF squadron in WWII and the 8th TFW in VN war, with 16 kills (12 WWII, 4 VN), Brig. Gen. Richard Stephen Ritchie of the USAF, with 5 MiG-21 kills and last but not least, Randy "Duke" Cunningham and Willie "Irish" Driscoll with 5 MiG kills.

Do you think flying aces like them are morale boosters for their squadron mates, and if they were to to be KIA, would the morale plummet?

What are your opinions?

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You forgot the top scoring American Ace of Vietnam: Col. Charles "Chuck" DeBellevue (6 A-A victories), and the last American Ace to date: Col. Jeffrey Feinstein (5). Both were F-4 WSOs at the time. Both became F-4 pilots following the war.

If you notice with our most recent aces, all became Aces in 1972. All were awarded the Cross of their specific branch of service (Cunningham and Driscoll received the Navy Cross, all others, the AFC). All were subsequently brought home following their 5th kills. This was in part, due to the threat of shootdown and capture.

The North Vietnamese knew exactly who these individuals were, and the retribution would have been severe.

For example Robinson Risner, the SRO at the Hanoi Hilton, had been an Ace in Korea, and at the time of his shootdown, had already received one Air Force Cross during the Vietnam War. He was widely known within the fighter community, and even had his face on the cover of Time Magazine. Unfortunately for him, his interrogators had a copy of that magazine, and showed it to him. He was severely tortured, as the North Vietnamese sought to avenge their fallen commie brethren.

If I were a fighter jock, and a pilot in my squadron became an ace, I would have no qualms with him ending his deployment early. That being said, there aren't but a few American pilots remaining on active duty who even have AA kills, and the last we had who got anywhere near to being an ace was in 1999, when F-15 pilot Col. Cesar "Rico" Rodriguez (AF ret.) earned his 3rd career AA kill in Kosovo (first 2 were in ODS). We are a long way away from having another ace, if we ever do.

Any other reason why flying aces were brought home prematurely? Was it temporary, the time spent as instructor pilots to teach the junior novices in detail how to dogfight, and allowed back on the front line.

And how did the enemy (i.e. the VPAF) find out who the flying aces were by name? Espionage?

In practice, it's a good idea to rotate the pilots in and out of the combat zone, teaching fighter tactics to the young second and first lieutenants rather than "flying till you die", because it helps produce more tactically experienced combat aviators, male and female, from second lieutenant to colonel.

When our Aces were brought home, they didn't rotate back to Vietnam. Again, the threat of retribution was there. Everybody knew who these guys were.

It didn't take a helluva lot of effort on the North's part to know who these guys were. Not only did they indeed have a large Intel gathering operation, but, in the case of an American fighter pilot who shot down 5 planes, you could just turn on the evening news and figure out who he is.

Steve Ritchie was a large enough celeb, that Barry M. Goldwater convinced him to run for office upon his return to the States. Of course, Cunningham would attain elected office years later, but we all know how that unfortunately turned out...

Cunningham and Driscoll went back to Miramar and became TOPGUN instructors. Cunningham would later command the school in the mid-80s, and some of his exploits were taken and shaped into part of the character that became Maverick in "Top Gun".

Ritchie had already been a Patch Wearer and IP. He served in several different flying positions up until the time he retired as a Brigadier General in the CO ANG.

TC wrote:

It didn't take a helluva lot of effort on the North's part to know who these guys were. Not only did they indeed have a large Intel gathering operation, but, in the case of an American fighter pilot who shot down 5 planes, you could just turn on the evening news and figure out who he is.

I thought a counterintelligence operation was existent, but foolishly, there wasn't, and also there was no censorship of the flying ace's identities during the conflict that should never have made their way onto the six o'clock news, for the sake of their lives.

But it was a good idea to send home those flying aces. Think of how the morale would have plummeted among the cadres of combat pilots if the aces were KIA. They would not have the stomach to fight and withdraw from the war in protest.

skyhigh wrote:

They would not have the stomach to fight and withdraw from the war in protest.

Well, that is illegal. You could try that, but you'd probably wind up breaking rocks at Leavenworth.

Anyway, all of us who serve took an oath to do so. Sure, there have been some who balked when the going got tough, but calling one's self a "Concientious Objector", a "Quaker", or any similar term, does not excuse cowardice.

Sure, deploying sucks. It's unpleasant, and you'd much rather be home, but you've got a job to do. Even when the locker next to yours suddenly becomes and stays empty, you still have a job to do. And you do it until you're told to go home. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

As George Patton once said:

"When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do...

...I want you to remember that no b@$tard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb b@$tard die for HIS country!"

You're right.

So if a flying ace was made during wartime, would morale be boosted among his / her squadron mates?

Obviously yes. In my opinion.

But what about if he / she were to be KIA? Morale would plummet among the squadron. An even worse thing could happen if that ace was the squadron CO.

Would you opt to avenge your squadron mate's or CO's death so you would become a flying ace yourself?

I'd prefer to do so, for the might glory of my squadron and my air force.

Forum: Off-topic

Flying aces = Morale boosters?