Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

I'm old enough to remember when the U2 driven by Francis Gary Powers was shot down by the USSR.

At the time, there were various reports that said he had an engine flameout or some other malfunction. The implication was that otherwise the Soviets wouldn't have been able to get him.

This is not mentioned in recent discussions that I've seen. Just wondering if there was an actual malfunction -- or was this a face saving story circulated at the time?

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Powers was definitely shot down by an SA-2. At the time, the US was not aware that the SA-2 could reach the U-2's altitude.

Story is the first missile hit the MiG that was in pursuit.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

I’m not sure this is just my opinion based on the evidence I have seen mostly in the media.

One of the best documentaries I ever saw on the U-2 and Gary Powers incident was a Canadian or some other United Kingdom documentary. I only saw the documentary once in Canada and was deeply impressed; though some of the conclusions in the documentary are somewhat suspect it was the best most informative least biased and most factual public documentary I’ve ever seen on this incident.

Though since the fall of the Soviet Union there has been some new interesting facts that have changed some of the conclusions that were pressed in that documentary. Thanks to the fall of the Soviet Union and their more openness and willing to share information about the incident we now have a much better understanding.

ford2go wrote:

At the time, there were various reports that said he had an engine flameout or some other malfunction. The implication was that otherwise the Soviets wouldn't have been able to get him.

At the time we really didn’t know why it went down, we could only speculate. We were overconfident in our superiority and underestimated our adversaries ability.

To this day I’m still not entirely sure about what transpired that day.

It appears that we may have falsely assumed that their SAMs could not reach the surveillance altitude of the U-2.

It appears we may have also underestimated the enemy’s fighters altitude and ATA missile capability. ( a lot less likely but still a possibility)

ford2go wrote:

This is not mentioned in recent discussions that I've seen. Just wondering if there was an actual malfunction -- or was this a face saving story circulated at the time?

I don’t think it was a deliberate way of saving face. I think it may have been a just a serious case of denial. I think it may have been some prejudice/bias to prefer opinions/possibilities that are more palatable for whatever reason.

I think it was typically assumed that it was:

1: pilot error ( coffin corner, stall/over speed; that led to a structural failure)

or

2: The engine flamed out and aircraft had to glide to a lower altitude to get a engine restart at which time it would be in range of both enemy aircraft and SAMs. (At the extreme altitudes that the aircraft flew it was fairly common to have a flameout and to lose a lot of altitude)

Or

3: Sometimes allegedly to conserve fuel and to extend the range on extremely long missions; allegedly the engine was periodically shut down to conserve fuel and glide in regions where there is sought to be little or no threat. If that was in fact a practice it raised the possibility that for some reason the engine failed to restart.

I think those were typically the three most common theories in the military and by the subcontractors. However I think those three theories were debunked after Gary Powers was released to the US and debriefed. It wasn’t till several decades later that I heard publicly that allegedly Gary Powers claimed that there was no coffin corner stall, no engine stall. I heard that allegedly Gary Powers claimed that without warning his aircraft just blew up at altitude; which seems to suggest that he was hit by SAMs and that we underestimated the Soviet SAM capability. (though it could also possibly indicate another alleged theory/ claim that a wake from a Su-9 violently impacted and rolled/over speeded and broke up the U-2)

I the impression said after the facts were better known as the military and government was not very open and willing to admit their mistakes; they do seem to prefer to shelve and bury the issue. I think that attitude was largely out of embarrassment of themselves; and the desire not to bring more attention to Gary Powers; a man that many people scorned and considered a traitor because he somewhat talked under pressure without physically being tortured. At the time the military was using the cover story that it was a NASA aircraft (that was not being used strategically/ accidentally off course); Gary Powers revealed that it was a reconnaissance aircraft for political and military intelligence. Gary Powers claims that he’d really didn’t tell the Soviets anything that he didn’t think they already knew or that could hurt us militarily; but he let them know enough that it was extremely politically embarrassing ( the US government and military was caught in a lie) which damaged their credibility.

The whole incident was embarrassing; we underestimated our adversary and we got caught in a lie and were severely embarrassed. I think there was a typical scapegoat mentality to blame the pilot to try to divert attention away from the indiscretions that the government/CIA/military had made.

Even to this day it is debatable how and what brought down the U-2. However in my opinion the evidence seems to mostly support the SAM theory.

Salute

I have personally seen an SA-two explode about a half a mile ahead of me.

Very ugly and large fireball.

The second missile zoomed up behind the flight ahead of me and I swear the damned thing went to a hundred thousand feet before self-destruct.

Gary Powers was hit by a SA-two. End of story.

Gums sends ...

Gums is right, as always.

Here's everything you need to know or would want to know about the day Francis Gary Powers was shot down over the Soviet Union:

http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/powers_gary.html

Yeah, that's the Road Runners again - and this article was written with the assistance and input of Powers' son, Francis Gary Powers Jr. Lots of good info, a link to the transcript of his debriefing, and pictures which help to tell the story.

Quote:

When asked how high he was flying on May 1, 1960, Powers would often reply, "Not high enough."

It should be noted that this was a joint CIA and USAF operation and when this became declassified in 2000, Powers was posthumously awarded the Department of Defense Prisoner of War Medal, National Defense Service Medal, and "The Director's medal" which was issued by George Tennent, Director of the CIA.

Godspeed, Mr. Powers.

It should also be pointed out that Powers (and the others) were given no training in what to expect in captivity. This was a completely different situation than where you have POW in a declared war. He did the best he could, with the training he had.

If you want to know anything historical about the U-2 Program, find the books from Chris Pocock. Or just contact him; he lives near London. He's the guru of U-2 knowledge. He was always snooping around our U-2 squadron in England in the early 90's.
His book "50 years of the U-2" is terrific. He charged me $70, but it's on Amazon for under $50! I'm going to kill Chris!!

parrothead wrote:

Gums is right, as always.

Here's everything you need to know or would want to know about the day Francis Gary Powers was shot down over the Soviet Union:

http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/powers_gary.html

Yeah, that's the Road Runners again - and this article was written with the assistance and input of Powers' son, Francis Gary Powers Jr. Lots of good info, a link to the transcript of his debriefing, and pictures which help to tell the story.

Quote:

When asked how high he was flying on May 1, 1960, Powers would often reply, "Not high enough."

It should be noted that this was a joint CIA and USAF operation and when this became declassified in 2000, Powers was posthumously awarded the Department of Defense Prisoner of War Medal, National Defense Service Medal, and "The Director's medal" which was issued by George Tennent, Director of the CIA.

Godspeed, Mr. Powers.

Bad way to go out, flying a news helo and let down by a bad fuel gauge.

Thanks for all of the info. I do remember a lot of criticism levelled at Powers, which, in retrospect, was undeserved.

I read some SR-71 books, and they mentioned that the U2 was always meant as a temporary solution.

However, I also did read (around the time of the Powers' incident), that Kruschev had films of U2 overflights at one of the Summits ( 56?). He apparently complained privately, but didn't go public, because it would have meant revealing that the USSR couldn't handle the problem.

Thanks again,

ford2go

According to Ben Rich's "Skunk Works" Powers' U-2 had ECM that worked. The theory was the SA-2 was actually able to home onto that as there were three other U-2s who's ECM malfunctioned and didn't have a problem with SA-2s over China at the time.

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Historical U2 ?