Forum: Technology

Recent off-topic unpleasantness on other threads has inspired me to create a thread dedicated to the purpose of argument over what's worth panicking over. I don't anticipate much traffic in this backwater of the forum (I hear crickets chirping already), but one can at least try.

Entries on the following are probably more acceptable here than on the F-35/F-22 boards:

-DF-21D IRBM (the so-called "carrier killer" missile)

-BrahMos (the scary new missile that isn't really new)

-Any silliness along the lines of "F-22/F-35 vs. a Chinese T-Rex" (or something equally ridiculous)

-Any warship (surface or submarine)

-Nuclear weapons

-Space-based assets

-SAM systems

-A2A weapons

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One of the most "scary" weapon, in my eyes is the
Pantsir S1, or SA-22 as it is called in the west.
It should be relatively cheap, so it can be aquired in numbers, and it can target incoming munitions, meaning it will be "imposssible" to shoot at.
If it is combined with an S-400 system, it would be dam hard to knock out.

Note the citation marks.

My 5 cent.

linkomart wrote:

One of the most "scary" weapon, in my eyes is the
Pantsir S1, or SA-22 as it is called in the west.
It should be relatively cheap, so it can be aquired in numbers, and it can target incoming munitions, meaning it will be "imposssible" to shoot at.
If it is combined with an S-400 system, it would be dam hard to knock out.

S-400 batteries defended by their own CIWS? That is pretty scary. If such a thing performs as advertised, it could indeed provide a nasty shock for the current SEAD doctrine. However, it should be noted that some of the newer munitions (like JSOW and JSM) incorporate their own LO features, while others (like SDB2) aren't likely to have much of a signature either.

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it. I think the future will require either swarm type attacks to overwhelm defenses or direct energy weapons, maybe both - that certainly seems to be something that's in the GA Avenger brochure video anyway. Soft targets like missiles and radars take relatively little energy to damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0dHKWjXn-E

Decoys may also be a factor. No matter how good a missile/gun based air defense is, it only has so much ammunition or missiles.

Imagine a JASSM cruising in at 30-40k and dropping a couple dozen 81mm mortars with either GPS, IIR, or laser seekers.

mcraptor wrote:

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it.

Where are you getting the "400yds" figure for the Pantsir S1? That seems impossibly short unless you're talking about something small-scale like the TROPHY vs RPG.

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it.

Where are you getting the "400yds" figure for the Pantsir S1? That seems impossibly short unless you're talking about something small-scale like the TROPHY vs RPG.

CIWS-type systems are generally able to engage a target in as little as a second. 400yds for a subsonic projectile gives 1.5-2s or more.

By and large my point is that stealth and LO generally doesn't work at the ranges it needs to in order to defeat CIWS. It generally doesn't work at several miles, yet alone less than a mile. So talking about stealth and LO as a counter to CIWS is moot.

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it.

Where are you getting the "400yds" figure for the Pantsir S1? That seems impossibly short unless you're talking about something small-scale like the TROPHY vs RPG.

CIWS-type systems are generally able to engage a target in as little as a second. 400yds for a subsonic projectile gives 1.5-2s or more.

By and large my point is that stealth and LO generally doesn't work at the ranges it needs to in order to defeat CIWS. It generally doesn't work at several miles, yet alone less than a mile. So talking about stealth and LO as a counter to CIWS is moot.

Pantsir S1's response time is given at 4-6 seconds. That's just to launch the interceptor, which also has to accelerate and reach its minimum safe distance. Effective engagement against a target detected at only 400 yds is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, 4-6 seconds is still pretty damned quick; attacking it wouldn't be easy. Also, I'd love to see a list of CIWS that are capable of one-second engagement, which I assume would be the period of time from detection in any direction to interceptor/rounds in the air. Bear in mind that a one second engagement envelope does not necessarily mean effectiveness against a target that's detected only 4-5 seconds away.

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it.

Where are you getting the "400yds" figure for the Pantsir S1? That seems impossibly short unless you're talking about something small-scale like the TROPHY vs RPG.

CIWS-type systems are generally able to engage a target in as little as a second. 400yds for a subsonic projectile gives 1.5-2s or more.

By and large my point is that stealth and LO generally doesn't work at the ranges it needs to in order to defeat CIWS. It generally doesn't work at several miles, yet alone less than a mile. So talking about stealth and LO as a counter to CIWS is moot.

Pantsir S1's response time is given at 4-6 seconds. That's just to launch the interceptor, which also has to accelerate and reach its minimum safe distance. Effective engagement against a target detected at only 400 yds is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, 4-6 seconds is still pretty damned quick; attacking it wouldn't be easy. Also, I'd love to see a list of CIWS that are capable of one-second engagement, which I assume would be the period of time from detection in any direction to interceptor/rounds in the air. Bear in mind that a one second engagement envelope does not necessarily mean effectiveness against a target that's detected only 4-5 seconds away.

The Pantsir S1 doesn't just have an interceptor. The one second engagement time is typical for a gun system and air-bursting 30mm ammunition makes a hit very likely.

In reality the munition could be intercepted by either the missile or the guns because it won't maintain stealth to inside 5 miles, even optimistically. Stealth is so that planes can skirt between the coverage provided by SAM radars 25-50 miles away, not so that they can fly right up to them.

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it.

Where are you getting the "400yds" figure for the Pantsir S1? That seems impossibly short unless you're talking about something small-scale like the TROPHY vs RPG.

CIWS-type systems are generally able to engage a target in as little as a second. 400yds for a subsonic projectile gives 1.5-2s or more.

By and large my point is that stealth and LO generally doesn't work at the ranges it needs to in order to defeat CIWS. It generally doesn't work at several miles, yet alone less than a mile. So talking about stealth and LO as a counter to CIWS is moot.

Pantsir S1's response time is given at 4-6 seconds. That's just to launch the interceptor, which also has to accelerate and reach its minimum safe distance. Effective engagement against a target detected at only 400 yds is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, 4-6 seconds is still pretty damned quick; attacking it wouldn't be easy. Also, I'd love to see a list of CIWS that are capable of one-second engagement, which I assume would be the period of time from detection in any direction to interceptor/rounds in the air. Bear in mind that a one second engagement envelope does not necessarily mean effectiveness against a target that's detected only 4-5 seconds away.

The Pantsir S1 doesn't just have an interceptor. The one second engagement time is typical for a gun system and air-bursting 30mm ammunition makes a hit very likely.
In reality the munition could be intercepted by either the missile or the guns because it won't maintain stealth to inside 5 miles, even optimistically. Stealth is so that planes can skirt between the coverage provided by SAM radars 25-50 miles away, not so that they can fly right up to them.

The 4-6 second figure I gave you was for the system in general, guns or no guns. No one-second engagements, sorry. That doesn't really matter though because, like you said, Pantsir S1 may still be able to pick up an LO munition with time to spare. Detection at just 5 nm would give the system a whole 45 seconds to respond to a 400 knot target (assuming the system is actually that good and can generate a perfect 360 degree bubble of radar coverage).

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it.

Where are you getting the "400yds" figure for the Pantsir S1? That seems impossibly short unless you're talking about something small-scale like the TROPHY vs RPG.

CIWS-type systems are generally able to engage a target in as little as a second. 400yds for a subsonic projectile gives 1.5-2s or more.

By and large my point is that stealth and LO generally doesn't work at the ranges it needs to in order to defeat CIWS. It generally doesn't work at several miles, yet alone less than a mile. So talking about stealth and LO as a counter to CIWS is moot.

Pantsir S1's response time is given at 4-6 seconds. That's just to launch the interceptor, which also has to accelerate and reach its minimum safe distance. Effective engagement against a target detected at only 400 yds is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, 4-6 seconds is still pretty damned quick; attacking it wouldn't be easy. Also, I'd love to see a list of CIWS that are capable of one-second engagement, which I assume would be the period of time from detection in any direction to interceptor/rounds in the air. Bear in mind that a one second engagement envelope does not necessarily mean effectiveness against a target that's detected only 4-5 seconds away.

The Pantsir S1 doesn't just have an interceptor. The one second engagement time is typical for a gun system and air-bursting 30mm ammunition makes a hit very likely.
In reality the munition could be intercepted by either the missile or the guns because it won't maintain stealth to inside 5 miles, even optimistically. Stealth is so that planes can skirt between the coverage provided by SAM radars 25-50 miles away, not so that they can fly right up to them.

The 4-6 second figure I gave you was for the system in general, guns or no guns. No one-second engagements, sorry. That doesn't really matter though because, like you said, Pantsir S1 may still be able to pick up an LO munition with time to spare. Detection at just 5 nm would give the system a whole 45 seconds to respond to a 400 knot target (assuming the system is actually that good and can generate a perfect 360 degree bubble of radar coverage).

Then your figure is wrong, plain and simple. The web only lists 4-6s as the time for firing a missile. Meanwhile typical gun systems are in the 1-2s range (see Phalanx for example). Obvioulsy the time taken to lock a missile is greater because you're dealing with 2 systems - the Pantsir and the missile itself. First the Pantsir radar has to lock then the missile itself has to lock.

Well exactly, the exact engagement time is irrelevant because EO systems will pick up the munition well outside a mile even assuming radar couldn't, which it can. In fact the performance of the system listed on the web states that it is capable of engaging targets as small as 1cm2 travelling at up to 1300m/s.

So cutting a long story short, swarm attack, cluster munitions and direct energy are the only sure fire ways of killing such a target

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

mcraptor wrote:

I guess it depends on detection range. So long as the eastern CIWS can see the munition from 400yds away, it can probably engage it.

Where are you getting the "400yds" figure for the Pantsir S1? That seems impossibly short unless you're talking about something small-scale like the TROPHY vs RPG.

CIWS-type systems are generally able to engage a target in as little as a second. 400yds for a subsonic projectile gives 1.5-2s or more.

By and large my point is that stealth and LO generally doesn't work at the ranges it needs to in order to defeat CIWS. It generally doesn't work at several miles, yet alone less than a mile. So talking about stealth and LO as a counter to CIWS is moot.

Pantsir S1's response time is given at 4-6 seconds. That's just to launch the interceptor, which also has to accelerate and reach its minimum safe distance. Effective engagement against a target detected at only 400 yds is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, 4-6 seconds is still pretty damned quick; attacking it wouldn't be easy. Also, I'd love to see a list of CIWS that are capable of one-second engagement, which I assume would be the period of time from detection in any direction to interceptor/rounds in the air. Bear in mind that a one second engagement envelope does not necessarily mean effectiveness against a target that's detected only 4-5 seconds away.

The Pantsir S1 doesn't just have an interceptor. The one second engagement time is typical for a gun system and air-bursting 30mm ammunition makes a hit very likely.
In reality the munition could be intercepted by either the missile or the guns because it won't maintain stealth to inside 5 miles, even optimistically. Stealth is so that planes can skirt between the coverage provided by SAM radars 25-50 miles away, not so that they can fly right up to them.

The 4-6 second figure I gave you was for the system in general, guns or no guns. No one-second engagements, sorry. That doesn't really matter though because, like you said, Pantsir S1 may still be able to pick up an LO munition with time to spare. Detection at just 5 nm would give the system a whole 45 seconds to respond to a 400 knot target (assuming the system is actually that good and can generate a perfect 360 degree bubble of radar coverage).

Then your figure is wrong, plain and simple. The web only lists 4-6s as the time for firing a missile. Meanwhile typical gun systems are in the 1-2s range (see Phalanx for example). Obvioulsy the time taken to lock a missile is greater because you're dealing with 2 systems - the Pantsir and the missile itself. First the Pantsir radar has to lock then the missile itself has to lock.

Well exactly, the exact engagement time is irrelevant because EO systems will pick up the munition well outside a mile even assuming radar couldn't, which it can. In fact the performance of the system listed on the web states that it is capable of engaging targets as small as 1cm2 travelling at up to 1300m/s.

So cutting a long story short, swarm attack, cluster munitions and direct energy are the only sure fire ways of killing such a target

I'm still not buying your one-second gun claim. From what I've seen, the guns and canisters are mounted on the same turret; so there's no reason for one to be any quicker than the other. Also, the Pantsir S1 interceptor doesn't lock on to $hit because it doesn't have a seeker. It only has a proximity-fuse and is directed entirely by the ground system to save weight, costs, and time.