Forum: Air Power

My top ten would have to be:
10. Fokker Dr. 1 Dreidecker
9. P-38
8. F-86
7. F-14
6. F4u Corsair
5. Messerschmit ME 262
4. F-16
3. Eurofighter Typhoon
2. F-22 (red flag stats are impressive)
1. F-15

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That's a very interesting list. Rating the Dr.I, and the Me-262 over the Me-109, F-4, and the P-51. The Me-262, while innovative, was not very impressive when one views its overall combat record.

The Dr.I, IMHO, was better known for its most famous pilot Manfred von Richthofen, than for its overall performance in WWI. In reality, Richthofen only earned 20 of his 80 AA kills in the Dr.I.

Then again, that's why everyone has their own list. Anybody can see a quality in a plane that others may not. I had earlier suggested an expanded Top 10, listing the Top 10s of individual eras. I will put mine together and post again soon.

Hey TC, to be honest, I couldn't really think of my "top ten" overall. I ended up picking a mix between combat record and innovation. Another thing too, is even though I do like the -109, f4 and p-51, I wanted to pick some planes that were'nt on everyones top list---although, 20 kills in one plane is darn impressive!

Very true. These days, earning just one AA kill is impressive enough.

No ME-262? whats up with that? it was by far the best aircraft of THAT era. and picking the F-18? i mean its a good solid aircraft, however the 16 and the 15 have waaaaaay better combat records!! and the F-117 thats has got to be the biggest joke of them all!! i mean hows it even going to get an Air to Air kill??? ram the enemy?

In any future list of favorite fighters (I feel), should include the requirements of the fighter must have seen extensive combat as a fighter, that the fighter played an important or vital part in a conflict.
Some of these list, I could sneak in a B-17, it shot down (approximately) enemy 5,000 interceptors! (It had a crummy kill ratio though.)
A list that includes the F-86 but not the MiG-15 lacks validity, especially if the list includes the MiG-21! Am I the only one who sees an injustice in this.
Possibly add some comments as to why the choice was made for a particular fighter.

Adrian

Perhaps if the MiG-15 had a better overall record against the Sabre, it would make more lists. The Sabre dominated the air war in Korea, and overall was a better aircraft. It is true, that the F-86 was designed specifically to counter the Soviet threat, but North American made the best jet of the two.

After the Sabre, there's only room for 9 more aircraft on a top 10 list, and picking throughout all of history, I know many can come up with 9 more planes that were either better in their own era, or better overall than the MiG-15.

But that is the problem with these lists Avon. They are too biased towards the list creator's own opinion. You might think that the MiG-15 was a great aircraft, but somebody else may not. That is why I suggested folks come up with their own Top 10s from each era. A top 10 for WWII, Korea/Cold War, Vietnam, Post Vietnam, etc. Those will be some interesting lists to see.

Asiatrails did one on the previous page, but combined all jets into a "Jets" list. I'd like to see top 10s from each of the categories, and broken down into their individual eras, as I mentioned.

As for the Me-262? I have to disagree with you kamov. It came into the war too late to be effective, and had a poor AA record against Allied prop-driven fighters, most especially the P-51D. Chuck Yeager himself shot one down, for one of his 12 kills in the war.

TC wrote:

As for the Me-262? I have to disagree with you kamov. It came into the war too late to be effective, and had a poor AA record against Allied prop-driven fighters, most especially the P-51D. Chuck Yeager himself shot one down, for one of his 12 kills in the war.

Well with the Me-262 you have to account for the fact that a lot of the pilots were very poorly trained and that it was immensely outnumbered. No matter how good you fighter is, you're kind of screwed when you get jumped by 8 enemies during your takeoff roll. By the time the Me-262 was operational, it was facing huge odds.

It's a similar problem with the MiG-15- it's hard to compare aircraft directly even in conflict because the tactical situations on both sides can be radically different.

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

Well with the Me-262 you have to account for the fact that a lot of the pilots were very poorly trained and that it was immensely outnumbered.

True, but I can't blame that on the Mustang drivers that dominated the -262s, any more than I can blame the Eagle Drivers who were so successful in ODS.

I truly think that "heads up" against other aircraft of its era plays a huge part in the decision of the top 10.

Granted, I put the F-4 on my list, but omitted the MiG-21, mainly because of the Rhino's versatility, another key issue. We were able to adapt the F-4 for several different missions, and once we changed our tactics, we were able to achieve successes against the MiG-17 and 21.

TC wrote:

Perhaps if the MiG-15 had a better overall record against the Sabre, it would make more lists. The Sabre dominated the air war in Korea, and overall was a better aircraft.

Come on now, a piss off mix of North Korean's, Chinese and a handful of Soviet pilots versus USAF WWII vets and aces? You don't have to be Nostradamus to see how that one is going to end. Pilot skill, force multipliers, tactics etc... often play a bigger role than aircraft performance alone. And the Sabre was not better than the Mig-15 by much, at least not a huge difference that could not be overcome by pilot skill.

Exactly. It's not always the machine, it's who's flying it that really counts. That being said, I can't blame the fact that our pilots were better and more experienced in combat during Korea, any more than I can blame the superior skill and operational readiness of our F-15 pilots during ODS. Better training, better jets, and excellent leadership that learned the lessons the hard way a couple of decades beforehand, plus some d@mn good intel from...er...another group of Eagle Drivers, all were keys to complete Air Superiority at the hands of the F-15 and her crews in Desert Storm.

Here is my stab at the topic... Shrug

with a brief explanation of each.

10. F-22 – supercruise, stealth, engine power, computing power, time may see it climb the list

9. ME-262 - first operational turbojet fighter, fast, heavy guns, great interceptor, (Improper intervened in the program screwed it all up, slowed and limited the ME-262 production/use until it was too late to decimate Allied air power. Good thing...)

8. F-86 - swept wing, hydraulically-boosted controls, radar-ranging lead-computing gun sight, 1st supersonic jet in a dive? Over 9,800 built

7. F-4 - MACH 2+, 5195 built from ’58-’81, in service until ’96, multi-role, set 15 world records, last US fighter with “ace” status

6. F-14 - Ultimate interceptor, 24 targets simultaneously, engage 6 out to 100 miles with AIM-54 Phoenix or GUN up close if needed!

5. P-38 - Long range with comparable fighters’ performance, multi-role, only US fighter production through duration of American in WWII, Allison V-1710 was the only US design V-12, liquid cooled, engine of WWII.

4. P-51 - Multi-role, fast, long-range, 4,950 kills, top US fighter in Europe.

3. F-16 - Thrust/Weight ratio, maneuverability, FBW, Multi-role, multi-national, CHEAP (...as Gen4 fighters go...)

2. P-47 - 3,752 A/A kills, more sorties (423,435) than all P-51s, P-38s and P-40s, most produced fighter of all time, over 15,000! Don’t forget the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp, one of the greatest radial engines of all time!

1. 1909 Wright Military Flyer – MUST be #1 for the obvious reason!

That's my picks, and I'm sticking to 'em!

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

2. P-47 - 3,752 A/A kills, more sorties (423,435) than all P-51s, P-38s and P-40s, most produced fighter of all time, over 15,000!

Not quite, there over 30K Me-109's built and over 20,000 Fw-190's built. The P-47 was the most massed produced 'American' fighter.

Adrian

avon1944 wrote:

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

2. P-47 - 3,752 A/A kills, more sorties (423,435) than all P-51s, P-38s and P-40s, most produced fighter of all time, over 15,000!

Not quite, there over 30K Me-109's built and over 20,000 Fw-190's built. The P-47 was the most massed produced 'American' fighter.

Adrian

Sorry Adrian, you're correct. In my haste I forgot to put the US in that statement....

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

2. P-47 - 3,752 A/A kills, more sorties (423,435) than all P-51s, P-38s and P-40s, most produced US fighter of all time, over 15,000!

Guess if Hitler and Goering hadn't screwed up that entire air situation the Me-109 would have made my list for being the best "workhorse" of WWII?

Hitler screwed up a LOT when it came to equipment in the war. If I remember correctly, he wanted the ME262 as a high speed bomber and sent them back to the drawing board for a while, thus delaying the deployment of it and making it MUCH less of a factor in the war. Then there was the STG-44, world's first assault rifle. It was either him or one of his top generals hated it so it never made it to the field in great numbers.

Or maybe I've been playing too many video games again.

Forum: Air Power

Top Ten fighters of all time...post your own list.