USAF ACM

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by FutureFlyer06 » 08 Jun 2004, 06:24

I have a general question about the USAF. I know that the AF trains a lot at ACM and is often times said to be the best air force in the world, however, how does it do against other air forces which it has trained with in ACM (of particular interest is the IAF). Also, how does it do against the USN or USMC? I know that these branches have totally different missions, but who is generally better at dogfighting and A-A? Please try to be as non-biased as you can. Thanks!


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by LinkF16SimDude » 08 Jun 2004, 07:05

From the standpoint of technological advancements and pilot proficiency then I'd have to say American pilot's of all 3 branches are the best, especially the Navy guys who have to land 30+ tons of jet on a pitching carrier deck at night in bad weather after an 8 hour combat sortie involving 3 or more tankings. Holy cats!!! :shock:

Having said that, IMHO the "best Air Force in the world" moniker gets doled out a little too liberally. It used to be said the Israelis were the best based solely on the amount of actual combat time their pilots had and their confirmed kill record. But regardless of what branch you're from, or what country, the deciding factor in any ACM engagement will be the training and proficiency of the pilot's involved and their knowledge of the capabilites and limits of the other guy's aircraft. Newbie American fighter pilots of all branches get BFM training just to get qualified in their respective jets before assignment to their operational duty stations. After that there's requals and recurrencies and regular training sorties to keep the edge on the sword. The same is true of other air forces, I'm certain.

Keeping the edge is the key. ACM is a very perishable skill and you have to practice it on a regular basis to remain proficent and ready to go to war. But flight time allotment is a pricey thing which is why American pilots are also judged the best because of the emphasis we place (and money we spend) on keeping their skills honed. I read a report some years ago about former Soviet and Warsaw Pact pilots only getting like 8 or 10 hours a month to fly because of their weak or failing economies, so their ACM skills were quite dull compared to their NATO and US counterparts that flew maybe 4 or 5 times more often. If an American flyer hasn't flown ACM or BFM for an extended period, he/she has to requal all over again before being considered battle-ready.


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by viper030687 » 08 Jun 2004, 11:49

Hi guys,

It seems that recently there was an exercise between India and the US. And I also heard that all A-A sorties flown were won by the Indian Air Force. I do not know how true it is. But for me it seems to be almost impossible. How can such a thing happen!! :shock:

The Best trained pilots in the world flying the F-15 pitted against Sukhoi pilots from INDIA. Its a no-brainer. Does anyone know about any recent exercises in Asia by the US? [india particularly]
!ts n0t speeD th@t k!lls,Its th3 sudDen Abs3nce 0f It


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by LinkF16SimDude » 08 Jun 2004, 12:49

I can only suspect the Indians had a head-steered all-aspect missile advantage (Archer?) over the Eagles. Take that away or include BVR AMRAAM shots and the Eagle has the edge.

Whatever-and-zero? Someone has to be embellishing somewhere I think! :roll:


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by elp » 08 Jun 2004, 15:08

Exercises like that are planned in advance. The rules, how kills will be scored etc. Are decided before hand. In the case of a first event like that, no one is going to show their full electronic profile. The Indians were not using their most advanced SU-30. and only R-27 ( AA10 ) not R77 (AA12).

What ever ROE USAF decided to use before they showed up is: Unknown. It is however being used well to sell F-22 to a moronic and clueless congress. ( F-22 is not being sold to congress enough, on how well it can dominated the DMPI jobs the first few nights of a war with SDB and JDAM-35 hitting deep high profile / highly defended infastructure targets. Put it in that environment and it is a revolution in dominating real estate. ( sortie rates that would make JSF look silly ).
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by FutureFlyer06 » 08 Jun 2004, 22:21

The exercise you are talking about is Cope India '04, in which USAF F-15s flew against Indian Flankers and Mirages. I have also looked into this extensively, and I have read a few reports saying that the Indians won (some say by 4 to 1). However, the credibility of these reports is highly questionable, and their information is not very reliable. I have also asked various Air Force pilots about the results of this exercise, however, all of them have replied by saying that it is classified. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see when the official reports get declassified.


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by Viperwiper » 08 Jun 2004, 23:48

From what I've heard..The Israli pilots are quite a bit better then the USAF. Mainly because they have like some said, they have more combat time and such. Also I've heard it said that there Government will take our low end vipers such as the A models and the like and get em way upgraded.

Thats only what I've heard around the line. I could be way off and if I am.. I'll be the first to admit it. hehe... Don't get me wrong, I do think where the BEST in the world. ALL branches mind you.
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by Happy_Gilmore » 09 Jun 2004, 02:03

From what I've heard..The Israli pilots are quite a bit better then the USAF. Mainly because they have like some said, they have more combat time and such.

Israeli pilots have more combat time that USAF pilots? Not even close, they may have more TOTAL kills collectivly, but hardly the combat time. Regardless, the beauty of it all is sheer numbers alone.
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by Lawman » 09 Jun 2004, 02:54

Two reasons the US can't be even approached by other nations as far as quality of training easily come to mind. Red Flag and the Naval Strike Warfare Center. No where else is anybody practicing what is as close to actual combat as possible. Not even our allies can put on an operation like this, thats why we invite them to participate so that they can gain from the advanced training we enjoy. Yes single 1 v 1 and 2 v 2 mock engagements are great for teaching fight skills, but only massive integrated training teaches a pilot how to fight on the battlefield. Not to mention the other massive training excercises our military puts on these put us well above pilots whose only training will really only be effective in CAP and Airbase Defence.


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by Gums » 09 Jun 2004, 03:29

Salute!

With all due respect to the many folks I flew with and taught, a few country's airmen stood out. More the individual than the country.

This is a personal opinion, tho a few of my contemporaries will likely agree.

I was able to fly with as a student or an instructor with the original Viper outfits except the Belgians. My class had two Danes, three Norwegians and five Americans. Our lone Dutchman was flying with us, but a class ahead (it is true - he wore wooden flying boots!! heh heh). God bless Barney, he was a super chap and used that joke when he graduated.

I flew with the Pakis and the Israelis in the Viper as an instructor. Same for the Egyptians.

As an IP and squadron toad in other jets, I flew with Viet Namese, Iranians, Jordanians, Brits and Cannucks.

We did not see any great tactics by the IAF. They were damned good at BFM, but about average in ACM. The Pakis were equal in BFM and maybe a bit better in ACM.

By far, the NATO folks 'fit in' better with USAF doctrine and tactics. They could also really fly the machines!!! One of my Deuce IP's was a Brit, and he could do things I couldn't dream of.

I won't rank the country's, but I would have to give a nod to the NATO troops overall. Probably 'cause we all trained together for WW3 over Central Europe.

Gums dons flak vest and heads for the foxhole!!!!!
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by elp » 09 Jun 2004, 16:25

:D
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by Asif » 09 Jun 2004, 16:41

A scan of the official patch from Cope India 04
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Cope India, Indo-US AirForce Exercise 2004 , Gwalior India.jpg
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by SwedgeII » 25 Jun 2004, 19:29

"One of the reasons the IAF is taking the praise lightly is that the exercise did not involve use of sophisticated technology. The officer said the exercise did not cover such aspects of modern air warfare as Beyond Visual Range flying and firing. "

Yeah go figure take away the F-15's greatest advantage! If they only wanted to test Knife fights they should have sent F-16's!! The real reason the USAF is saying they lost is so they can get the F-22!!



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