Forum: F-22A Raptor

I'm working on a FDM for JSBSim/FlightGear and am looking for information on the range of motion of the ailerons, rudders and H-stabs. The TVC I already have.

Can anyone point me to some good sources? I've already Googled this numerous times and have looked at many websites without much luck so any help would be appreciated.

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There's probably a reason why you can't find it on google or any other website................

I can't imagine that being sensitive, just not common enough or interesting enough to make the web

Roscoe wrote:

I can't imagine that being sensitive, just not common enough or interesting enough to make the web

Just interesting to me I guess Very Happy

I can't see how this would be sensitive info- the TVC range of motion is easy to find on the net, so the control surface ROM should be out there somewhere...

I don't know if you have any experience within the Raptor program, but if you have not, you cannot possibly "imagine" what is/is not sensitive. Things that seem mundane can be classified for certain reasons.

Point noted, DCTR.

Look out, you don't want to give the bad guys too much information about those control surfaces! God forbid they find out the deflections necessary to perform those airshow manuevers. Or maybe...they're not defelcting the surfaces to their max in those shows!!! They're holding back! Curse you Paul Moga! Why can't they ever just be truthful and forth-coming with us?! God, I hate the government and their usless information pinching.

Guys,

When it comes to this sort of thing, I usually bow to Roscoe who has been there, done that, and worn the T-shirt out Smile

That said, we're talking about a low-observable jet here. Control deflections definitely play a part in RCS. Heck, they won't tell you much more about the special "penetration mode" for the B-2 control surface deflection other than it exists and it minimizes control surface movement. I don't blame 'em one bit.

Suffice it to say that what I've seen at the airshows indicates that the control surfaces have large throws. I'm willing to leave it there, but I'll tell you that I don't think they're anywhere near max-performing the jet Wink

They want you to think they aren't pushing it to the limit! Anyway, the maximum deflection shouldn't need to be hidden as I would think that the deflection would ruin the stealth way before it got to the fully thrown state. Also, consider that you'll only get maximum deflection at slow speeds, and I doubt that the F-22 would be putzing about, fully deflecting its control surfaces enroute to its target. Full deflection would only be necessary in the good old dogfight, and at that point, strealth is not really that beneficial to you.

parrothead wrote:

When it comes to this sort of thing, I usually bow to Roscoe who has been there, done that, and worn the T-shirt out Smile

That said, we're talking about a low-observable jet here. Control deflections definitely play a part in RCS. Heck, they won't tell you much more about the special "penetration mode" for the B-2 control surface deflection other than it exists and it minimizes control surface movement. I don't blame 'em one bit.

Appreciate the love. Very Happy

For the record, I've worked on both the F-22 and the B-2 programs at one time or another, and yes, I'm fully aware of the impact of control deflection on RCS (heck, I was the lead performance flight test engineer on the B-2 for a while so, duh...).

Bottom line, max control deflections create max maneuvering. An F-22 has no business pulling a hayacka if they are trying to remain "invisible".

Also note that max deflections are most likely not available everywhere in the envelope (hinge moment limitations) so knowing those values will most likely not reveal anything about max maneuverability.

Guys, I know you all like to be cautious, and I truly applaud that, but a little common sense needs to be applied. Remember, speculating (as in no way to know the real answer) is not illegal, and folks who aren't speculating but in fact know the answer, ain't gonna post it here because they know they're going to jail...

Roscoe wrote:

parrothead wrote:

When it comes to this sort of thing, I usually bow to Roscoe who has been there, done that, and worn the T-shirt out Smile

That said, we're talking about a low-observable jet here. Control deflections definitely play a part in RCS. Heck, they won't tell you much more about the special "penetration mode" for the B-2 control surface deflection other than it exists and it minimizes control surface movement. I don't blame 'em one bit.

Appreciate the love. Very Happy

For the record, I've worked on both the F-22 and the B-2 programs at one time or another, and yes, I'm fully aware of the impact of control deflection on RCS (heck, I was the lead performance flight test engineer on the B-2 for a while so, duh...).

Bottom line, max control deflections create max maneuvering. An F-22 has no business pulling a hayacka if they are trying to remain "invisible".

Also note that max deflections are most likely not available everywhere in the envelope (hinge moment limitations) so knowing those values will most likely not reveal anything about max maneuverability.

Guys, I know you all like to be cautious, and I truly applaud that, but a little common sense needs to be applied. Remember, speculating (as in no way to know the real answer) is not illegal, and folks who aren't speculating but in fact know the answer, ain't gonna post it here because they know they're going to jail...

Thanks for the insight...of course I am not asking people with specific intimate knowledge to post figures here. Instead I was hoping that someone who has a public source with this information to point me to it or reference it. Perhaps it is out there, but just not easy to find.

Honestly, like you said, max control surface deflections are likely not too sensitive. However knowing how the FCS system limits the control surface deflections while being illuminated by threat systems and how it affects the jets manueverability likely is. I don't need that information and would not ask for it.

I apologize if my comments sounded like I was insulting anyones intelligence, that was not my intention. All I was trying to stress is despite what you think should be public knowledge or how rediculous you think it is to keep certain things from public knowledge, it is done for very specific reasons. One of them could arguably be forums like this. I know some of you have or have had access to the Raptor program, but i you haven't, why are you arguing these points? You can make all of the "This-is-so-stupid-they-don't-tell-us-these-things" statements you want, but without first hand knowledge of the program, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Why speculate about something you have no knowledge of? Surfaces deflections may very well be public knowledge, but if they are not there is a very good reason for it wether you think it's stupid or not. I can't put it any more plain than that and if that rubs you the wrong way or offends you in some way, I apologize but that's the way it is. Now I'm gonna go try and shoot a moose.

Raptor_DCTR wrote:

I apologize if my comments sounded like I was insulting anyones intelligence, that was not my intention. All I was trying to stress is despite what you think should be public knowledge or how rediculous you think it is to keep certain things from public knowledge, it is done for very specific reasons. One of them could arguably be forums like this. I know some of you have or have had access to the Raptor program, but i you haven't, why are you arguing these points? You can make all of the "This-is-so-stupid-they-don't-tell-us-these-things" statements you want, but without first hand knowledge of the program, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Why speculate about something you have no knowledge of? Surfaces deflections may very well be public knowledge, but if they are not there is a very good reason for it wether you think it's stupid or not. I can't put it any more plain than that and if that rubs you the wrong way or offends you in some way, I apologize but that's the way it is. Now I'm gonna go try and shoot a moose.

Is this directed at me, or Aub?

Raptor_DCTR wrote:

"This-is-so-stupid-they-don't-tell-us-these-things" statements you want, but without first hand knowledge of the program, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Why speculate about something you have no knowledge of?

Because this is an aviation forum where people share their interest in military aircraft.

Even discussing WHY something shouldn't be posted may be sensitive in your eyes but it helps us amateurs to better understand the issues. To me, it seems kinda circular to say "I can't even tell you why I can't tell you." As has been stated many times on these forums, those in the know should understand their security obligations and the forum moderators police these discussions well. It isn't for us lay folk to worry as much about the issues - we're here to enjoy talking about flying thingees.

You seem to advocate being especially cautious, suggesting that people do not state anything that isn't already available elsewhere and has specifically been cleared for release. I applaud your patriotism and sensitivity but there is a natural tension between freedom and security and the former shouldn't be sacrificed for the latter. Of course this isn't a government site so freedom of speech isn't an issue but I tend to have a high threshold for telling people not to talk. Some would say that's being very liberal. Some would say that's being extremely conservative (as in the libertarian sense).

Mike

With or without first hand knowledge of the program, I think it is safe to say that giving away the maximum deflections wouldn't compromise anything. Oh no, they figured out that the stabilators deflect two more degrees than we were letting on! Now they know our massively genius insight! They would most likely tell you the maximum deflections if you knew where to look or who to ask.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 Control Surface Range of Motion