Forum: F-22A Raptor

I am really surprised that no one had a problem with the original statement; "not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us." I really think it gives the Typhoon way too much credit. I don't have 15 experience and I won't bash it, but I would compare the Typhoon to a 16 block 60 or a F-18E/F. The typhoon would have been a game changer 15 years ago, but a new 16 or 18 with an experienced driver would make it a pretty even fight.

I am really surprised that no one had a problem with the original statement; "not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us."

The typhoon would have been a game changer 15 years ago, but a new 16 or 18 with an experienced driver would make it a pretty even fight.

I caught it. In fact that statement pretty much blew the credibility of everything else supposedly said but I did not want to rain on what has become a rather entertaining thread.

Most of the goodies that Typhoon is supposed to get that they hope will make it so wonderful have either not been fielded yet or have not been funded (AESA comes to mind) and are on someones wish list.

An aircraft that MAY have marginally better flight characteristics in some situations is not going to dominate.

There is no game changer like stealth, truly useful super cruise or extreme maneuverability with Tiffie. All of the exercises that I have heard of and are published have been against early model F-16s, F-15s and F-18s.

True, but only if it came out fully developed and equipped in Tranche 3 form with AESA and Meteor.

"not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us."

To say that a wel flown late model F-15...F-18 does not have a great chance against a Eurofrauder is beyond the realm of reason.

There just is not that great a separation in capabilities between the Tiffe and the teen series as there is with an F-22 and a tiffie (or teen series for that matter).

I discounted the entire story, not just the part about Eurofrauder and ten series.

Reality and requirements are two different things. If they aren't flying and they aren't funded then you cannot use them can you.

Wrong about what? What have they said? Lets face it most if not all of the tiffie test pilots have flown Tornados. Well gee that's a really high performer now isn't it. Of course tiffies is going to seem like night and day when you come out of that dog.

Who else besides the USAF is flying those planes and has written about encounters? You are making assumptions based on what facts.

You really should stay over at the other forum where you will continue to get the support of Jacko and the rest of the BAE brainwashed.

I'm interested to hear you back up the many claims you have made there. For one, how can you claim that definitively the F22's maneuverability is 'superior to any operational fighter'??? Where's your proof? Also, once you are within 'visual' range, I'm sure the IR seeker systems of the European and Russian lines will have long picked up the F22 despite its efforts to reduce IR emissions. This is because heat doesn't just come from the engines, but the lead edge flight surfaces too, from friction with air.

Whilst being LO in BVR and entering the merge at an advantage is true for the F22, once WVR the fight could go either way. That is my view of things at least.

And were there was a specific model such as F-15SG, F-16E/F blk 60 or F/A-18E/F blk 2 named? Oh nowhere. But of course you can create your own story to twist the facts.

You don't get the point, there was no requirement for AESA radar or TVC in the past, therefore you are not going to see it on the current aircraft.

F-16s in AMI service, F-18s in EdA service, all kinds of teens on exchange tours, MiG-29 in Lw service... I suggest you start to inform yourself before shouting out loud crap.


Ehhm ever heared about USAFE? Ever heared about Singapore evaluation. Ever realised that Block 50/52 are operated by a dozen or even more airforces around the world?

You where the one that inferred that they where flying against late model vipers.

No. it's you who misses the point. If you do not have AESA, you do not have (most of them now flying at any rate) IRST, you do not have Meteor, and your flight software is still not fully developed then what do you have?

Lets talk about being informed shall we Scorps. The F-16s the AMI operates are Blk 5 - 15. Spain flys F-18 As and Bs. The last German interceptor is the F-4 and old Mig-29s. and the last British Interceptor is the Tornado. None of them exactly considered top shelf fighters nowadays. So tell me how did those Tiffie test pilots compare? Even if they did what are they going to say. "Gee we spent so much money on this pig and compared to our competitor's aircraft it really leaves much to be desired." Oh, sure I can see how that would be real career enhancing.

The fact is no Tiffie operator uses the blk 50/52 or any other current front line fighter so how do their test pilots make comparisons? Oh, and about the Singapore "evaluation". How many tiffies did they buy?

Mike, in order for me to "prove" to you that the F-22 is more maneuverable than any other operational fighter I would have to provide you with classified charts and what not, which obviously I cannot do. However, if you follow this sort of stuff, you know it is pretty much undisputed that the F-22 can outmaneuver any OPERATIONAL fighter out there. It is a claim made often enough by Raptor pilots, never disputed by, say, Typhoon pilots (and indeed backed up by RAF exchange pilots).

Regarding IR signature pick-up WVR, once again, it is highly unlikely, unless absolutely necessary, that a Raptor would fly to the merge straight into the forward quadrant of an enemy aircraft where it could be possibly picked up by the latter's IRST (if it has one). The Raptor's ability to know where the other guy is, and the latter's inability to see, enables the Raptor to close to WVR without being detected, either visually or IR. This is not speculative, but purely logical. It is what the USAF did time and again during Desert Storm, queued by AWACs, to enter the fight in a position of SA and kinetic advantage versus an enemy that had no clue where they were coming from. And that was without VLO. The fight is even more unfair now...

And lastly, I wouldn't say the F22's maneuverability was "undisputed". Many Flanker and Mig-29m/Mig-35 fans will dispute it.