Forum: F-22A Raptor

Yep, more fuel for that ever-burning EF vs. F-22 fire. Twisted Evil

(My apologies if this has already been brought up.)

Just caught this little tidbit off another forum (post is dated early May '08 ):

Guys - I just got back from the 355th FG reunion hosted by the 355th FW at Davis Monthan. At Roll Call on Friday night at the O-Club the newly deployed Euro Fighter rotation of Brits were in full array and feisty - until the discussion of 'Say, how are you guys doing against the F-22?"

"Well, if you can see the bloody thing you have a chance... not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us. The problem is the AAMRAM is up your a$$ long before you can possibly see it. Quite discouraging 'do' at Nellis, really."

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/f-22-vs-12344-9.html#post351443

I dunno... Seems legit enough.

Can anyone here confirm or deny? Question

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So surely, the enemy tactics would be to get as many a/c WVR of the Raptor as possible, what else is new?

Personally, I'd wish successful funding and development of HMD and HOBS IR capability would lead to such capability on Raptor ASAP.

geogen wrote:

So surely, the enemy tactics would be to get as many a/c WVR of the Raptor as possible, what else is new?

Personally, I'd wish successful funding and development of HMD and HOBS IR capability would lead to such capability on Raptor ASAP.

How do you get aircraft into visual range of something you can't detect (at least until it is well within visual range)?

Mike

MKopack wrote:

geogen wrote:

So surely, the enemy tactics would be to get as many a/c WVR of the Raptor as possible, what else is new?

Personally, I'd wish successful funding and development of HMD and HOBS IR capability would lead to such capability on Raptor ASAP.

How do you get aircraft into visual range of something you can't detect (at least until it is well within visual range)?

Mike

'xactly...

Who can guarantee you that it can't be detected beyond visual range? Detection is one thing putting a missile on it another...

Scorpion82 wrote:

Who can guarantee you that it can't be detected beyond visual range? Detection is one thing putting a missile on it another...

"The problem is the AAMRAM is up your a$$ long before you can possibly see it."

Obamanite wrote:

"The problem is the AAMRAM is up your a$$ long before you can possibly see it."

Maybe...

Scorpion82 wrote:

Obamanite wrote:

"The problem is the AAMRAM is up your a$$ long before you can possibly see it."

Maybe...

Surely you know better than all the pilots who have flown against the Raptor, all of whom say exactly the same thing...

Obamanite wrote:

Scorpion82 wrote:

Obamanite wrote:

"The problem is the AAMRAM is up your a$$ long before you can possibly see it."

Maybe...

Surely you know better than all the pilots who have flown against the Raptor, all of whom say exactly the same thing...

Exactly. In the past 12 months I've spent time at Langley, Shaw, Seymour Johnson, McEntire, Cherry Point, Beaufort and Oceana talking to guys - and girls - who have flown with, and against, the Raptor. One hundred percent of them, not many, not most, but every single freakin' one said the exact same thing - you fly out to the restricted area, you get shot down, and then you fly home - and you never even detect or see the Raptor that you know full well is out there.

Think about the pilots that you know. Let me think how to put this diplomatically, many tend to, let's say, 'be willing to talk up their own reputations a bit'... (There's an old saying that "If you have to ask who's the best fighter pilot, it ain't you.") If I couldn't find a single pilot flying F-15's, F-16's, F/A-18C/D's, F/A-18E/F's who tells me that they stand a chance against a Raptor (without the F-22 pilot making a bad mistake), what does that tell you.

If you are flying against a low-observable target you MUST search for him, it's your only chance. Yet the minute you radiate, he can sence you passively. You're a flashlight in a dark room. He sees you, you can't see him. He has every tactical advantage. Now, what does history show - since WWI - the result of an encounter when you are not the first to detect the enemy?

"They can shoot us down at will, without us even knowing that they're out there."

That's scary. That's dominance.

Mike

Obamanite wrote:

Surely you know better than all the pilots who have flown against the Raptor, all of whom say exactly the same thing...

Sure is that you accuse me for things I haven't said. You might misinterpret the maybe.
Nonetheless the interesting part about that (if it is true) is the following quote:
"not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us."

I would like to see this story confirmed by some more official sources however rather than a forum post. Interestingly the first rumours coming from the british site (also unconfirmed, even denied by the US) were dismissed by americans and done off as rumors/crap. Yet those guys hear another unconfirmed story from a US guy and take it for granted Rolling Eyes

I have basically no problem to accept it if it happened and honestly didn't expect something very different at all. I just like to see offical confirmation.
No details are known at all about such encounters and in which way they happened. The Typhoons were to the US for AG training and in Nellis they ever flew with a relativ heavy load including a couple of 1000 lb bombs.
In Davis Monthan they flew without stores for most of the time but still practised AG runs. Like ever details are missing and there are at least other ways of detecting the enemy except for the radar... That doesn't mean the situation won't change at all...

MKopack wrote:

If you are flying against a low-observable target you MUST search for him, it's your only chance. Yet the minute you radiate, he can sence you passively. You're a flashlight in a dark room. He sees you, you can't see him. He has every tactical advantage. Now, what does history show - since WWI - the result of an encounter when you are not the first to detect the enemy?

"They can shoot us down at will, without us even knowing that they're out there."

That's scary. That's dominance.

Mike

You must search to destroy, but you don't need to use your radar for that. If it is known that your radar won't detect the Raptor it would be better to keep it off. So how will the Raptor detect you then? As said detection is one thing, putting the weapons on it another. The result will probably be similar in the end so it doesn't matter. As said the part about ""not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us." is most interesting. What does it tell us? That the F-15 or F-16 have no chance against a Typhoon or that the Typhoon has a small one against the Raptor, unlike the F-15, F-16, F-18... A 88:1 kill ratio is hardly a "chance" Wink

Scorpion82 wrote:

Obamanite wrote:

Surely you know better than all the pilots who have flown against the Raptor, all of whom say exactly the same thing...

Sure is that you accuse me for things I haven't said. You might misinterpret the maybe.
Nonetheless the interesting part about that (if it is true) is the following quote:
"not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us."

I would like to see this story confirmed by some more official sources however rather than a forum post. Interestingly the first rumours coming from the british site (also unconfirmed, even denied by the US) were dismissed by americans and done off as rumors/crap. Yet those guys hear another unconfirmed story from a US guy and take it for granted Rolling Eyes

I have basically no problem to accept it if it happened and honestly didn't expect something very different at all. I just like to see offical confirmation.
No details are known at all about such encounters and in which way they happened. The Typhoons were to the US for AG training and in Nellis they ever flew with a relativ heavy load including a couple of 1000 lb bombs.
In Davis Monthan they flew without stores for most of the time but still practised AG runs. Like ever details are missing and there are at least other ways of detecting the enemy except for the radar... That doesn't mean the situation won't change at all...

You must realize how disingeneous you are being by quoting only part of the above, or you lack reading comprehension. The FULL quote reads:

"Well, if you can see the bloody thing you have a chance... not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us."

What that pilot is clearly saying is that the Typhoon, if it can see the Raptor, has about as much of a chance of defeating it as an F-15 or F-16 has of defeating a Typhoon, which makes sense. However, that is providing the Typhoon driver can see the Raptor, otherwise he has NO chance, as in, "The problem is the AAMRAM is up your a$$ long before you can possibly see it."

So which is it, are you quoting out of context and are therefore little better than a liar, or do you lack reading comprehension, in which case you are a nincompoop?

Scorpion82 wrote:

Obamanite wrote:

Surely you know better than all the pilots who have flown against the Raptor, all of whom say exactly the same thing...

Sure is that you accuse me for things I haven't said. You might misinterpret the maybe.
Nonetheless the interesting part about that (if it is true) is the following quote:
"not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us."

I would like to see this story confirmed by some more official sources however rather than a forum post. Interestingly the first rumours coming from the british site (also unconfirmed, even denied by the US) were dismissed by americans and done off as rumors/crap. Yet those guys hear another unconfirmed story from a US guy and take it for granted Rolling Eyes

You could always ask the Brit pilot who's flying the F-22 exchange. I'm sure you know the video I'm talkin' about.

Scorp, Ob, I hear ya m8s... but c'mon... either put down the bottle or cool ye jets OK! You can make an attempted intelligent remark on these boards without the stinking exhaust for the rest of us to choke on.

So then, going by the replies so far, am I to assume that there might actually be something to this guy's account of things? If so, then I can't wait for an "official" confirmation.

This would be great ammo to use against those EF fan(atic)boys on YouTube who keep claiming the F-22's stealth can't hide from the EF's sensors. Wink

(Not that I have anything against the EF, mind you. The only thing wrong with it is its absurdly high flyaway. It doesn't offer what it should for the asking price per unit, especially when you compare it to the F-22.)

sferrin wrote:

You could always ask the Brit pilot who's flying the F-22 exchange. I'm sure you know the video I'm talkin' about.

You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ-Mfd6K6CI

Cool

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Raptor and Typhoon finally mixing it up?