No DAS on the F-22?

I have read in sveral threads that one advantage the F-35 will enjoy over the F-22 is the DAS. I assume that the HMD in the F-22 is capable of showing the same info as the F-35 version (it appears the DAS info will be displayed as rather simple graphics), such that the F-22s could eventually also get a DAS. Do any you have any info on this?

DAS, which means "Distributed Aperture System", is a system of 6 day/night cameras that cover the F-35 in a 360 degree envelope of protection. The info gathered can be displayed in the HMD (Helmet Mounted Display) and also used for fire control. Imagine an IRST that can see in front of, above, below, to each side, and to the rear of the F-35.

Here is a cool video of it's abilities.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solut ... video.html

And here is an overall tech briefing of the F-35's abilities.

http://www.jsf.mil/f35/f35_technology.htm

The F-22s MLD might be used for such purposes in the future, such a possiblity is at least studied by LM. If the MLD provides the same effective coverage as DAS is questionable. BTW the F-22 currently has no HMD.

I have only been able to find very little info in the MLD.

Check page 28 here http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/13577.pdf

I have actually found more info on DAS

Based on what has been stated, the MLD is smaller and less advanced than the DAS which means that it will be more difficult to upgrade due to space constraints.

Thanks for the replies to you both.

I'm quite stunned that the F-22 doesn't have a HMD a yet - IIRC even the Typhoon pilot has a HMD, although maybe not with the capabilities to display FLIR imagery (I'm of the impression that only basic graphics like what is traditionally displayed in HUDs can be displayed on the Typhoons HMD). I was of the impression that a HMD is one of the top priorities to have from the start in an aircraft designed for air superiority. I know that the F-22 is supposed to kill the enemy BVR, but surely it is also necessary to be able fight very efficiently up close. I know the F-22 is not designed to be a ground pounder and is to be used only for precision A2G strikes at supposedly immobile targets, making some of the functions of the DAS less important (e.g. the ground vehicle tracking). But the ability to track enemy aircraft 360 degrees in a dogfight seems extremely important for an air superity fighter. Also, the ability to launch short range missiles with LOBL even though the missile seeker cannot see the target itself seems quite nifty, although the range will surely suffer if firing at targets behind the aircraft. I don't know if the F-22's MLD will also detect AA artillery, but this would in my layman oppinion also be something the F-22 pilot would miss.
So it basically seems like the F-35 will have the upper hand compared to the F-22 in close range dogfights with the ability of extreme of-boresight missile launches, where the F-22 will have to bleed of large ammounts of energy - especially if using thrust vectoring - to point the nose at the enemy.
Am I completely mistaken here?

AndyK wrote:I'm quite stunned that the F-22 doesn't have a HMD a yet - IIRC even the Typhoon pilot has a HMD, although maybe not with the capabilities to display FLIR imagery (I'm of the impression that only basic graphics like what is traditionally displayed in HUDs can be displayed on the Typhoons HMD).

The Typhoon's HMD can present FLIR and NVE imgary as well.

I was of the impression that a HMD is one of the top priorities to have from the start in an aircraft designed for air superiority. I know that the F-22 is supposed to kill the enemy BVR, but surely it is also necessary to be able fight very efficiently up close. I know the F-22 is not designed to be a ground pounder and is to be used only for precision A2G strikes at supposedly immobile targets, making some of the functions of the DAS less important (e.g. the ground vehicle tracking). But the ability to track enemy aircraft 360 degrees in a dogfight seems extremely important for an air superity fighter. Also, the ability to launch short range missiles with LOBL even though the missile seeker cannot see the target itself seems quite nifty, although the range will surely suffer if firing at targets behind the aircraft. I don't know if the F-22's MLD will also detect AA artillery, but this would in my layman oppinion also be something the F-22 pilot would miss.
So it basically seems like the F-35 will have the upper hand compared to the F-22 in close range dogfights with the ability of extreme of-boresight missile launches, where the F-22 will have to bleed of large ammounts of energy - especially if using thrust vectoring - to point the nose at the enemy.
Am I completely mistaken here?

The HMD which was supposed the JHMCS at the beginning was abandone on cost grounds and due other priorities. We might indeed the a HMD and HOBS capable missile on the F-22, but just not yet. 360° coverage is indeed a noticeable advantage, but as long as no enemy features something similar its not neccessarily a must.

Thanks again

Actually the video of the DAS in action is quite funny in the sequence where the eurofighter is displayed as the poor and helpless non DAS equipped allied fighter that gets blown to pieces by the big, bad SU-35s (who are then, of course, obliterated by the F-35s).

Well, I would indeed find it very funny if the F-22 does not get the F-35 HMD very quickly when available. Although I recognize the outstanding BVR fighting ability of the F-22, I have a hard time accepting that a HMD isn't needed right now in the F-22. Also, I hope the DAS in some form will find its way to the F-22 very quickly. In my mind the F-22 should be the very, very best the US can in any way built, but as always when tax money are involved, compromises have to be made.

AndyK wrote:Well, I would indeed find it very funny if the F-22 does not get the F-35 HMD very quickly when available. Although I recognize the outstanding BVR fighting ability of the F-22, I have a hard time accepting that a HMD isn't needed right now in the F-22. Also, I hope the DAS in some form will find its way to the F-22 very quickly. In my mind the F-22 should be the very, very best the US can in any way built, but as always when tax money are involved, compromises have to be made.

They are available, just not funded for the Raptor. It does just fine in close in dogfights...so much so that no one wants to bother with DACT training against the Raptor. The Air Force TDY's jets to fight them. The Navy doesn't like fighting with our jets at Langley either. The Raptor is the best in the AtA environment, the F-35 will not surpass it there.

I'm not doubting that the F-22 performs better than other current US fighters. Also, I'm not doubting that the F-22 will be better than the F-35 in BVR considering the F-22's allegedly better radar in A-A mode, the supercruise, and the lower RCS. However, if the F-22 doesn't receive either a HMD and cuing system or something like the F-35 DAS, I can't imagine the F-22 being more than competitive against a F-35 in WVR. If the F-22 needs to use thrust vectoring to point its nose to obtain a sidewinder lock (and surely bleed of a lot of speed), while the F-35 pilot has 360 degress vision and tracking while also not needing to turn to launch a sidewinder, I can't see how the F-22 should still be so superior.

An extra question: If staying in the normal envelope without using thrust vectoring, is the F-22 still more maneuverable than the F-35?

AndyK wrote:An extra question: If staying in the normal envelope without using thrust vectoring, is the F-22 still more maneuverable than the F-35?

Probably better T/W ratio and wing load.. so i think yes, it's still more maneuverable.

From the Above PDF

Lockheed Martin continues to advance the modular design of MLD with the
development of both high-resolution and multi-spectral sensor variants and an expanded
algorithm base that incorporates aircraft detection and tracking, as well as missile threats.

Looks like they already have that in mind.

By the time a Block 40 variant of the Raptor enter service (ca. 2011), it will be equipped with the Lightning II's HMD and DAS.

Now, Now Boys! We can't run down to Walmart and buy the latest release of your video game because I'm almost out of Vodka. If you had your own, pet F-22 then you might be able to upgrade it with every little thing that CNET brings to light each day. In the real world, we must plan, bid, purchase, train and then install, all of the latest gizmos that come along. Yes, the CAT bird is discovering many great uses for all of those nifty systems that the Lightning will have. Some of those new uses are really amazing, even considering the technology. The Raptor (A model) will have to be upgraded because some of those discoveries are game rule changers. Others will be included because they are "Free" or minimal in hardware or software costs. TIME!, will continue to march on and we will spend more money on both of these new "Software Airplanes". This time, I may be able to add that new function as a software rev. and integrate it into the MFD, as a new screen display. Bottom line, as the Lightning grows, so will the Raptor. Best wishes to both programs and God Bless America.

I just hope all the lessons have been learned. Having only lost one F-22A and quickly correcting a flight control issue is a great feat. Hope no F-35's are lost.

As the Raptor steadily evolves, take a look at this diagram about the possible Block 40.