Forum: F-16 Procedures

johnwill wrote:

And in some cultures, students are not taught to think for themselves, but to learn by rote.

hopefully it will remain this way.

regards & respect, OL

F-16.net Sponsor

Open-minded is the way to go.

Now about the folded wings of the F-4, a sad note:
A greek SLUF, a decade ago, had ONE wing folding during T/O. Results were disastrous, jet started rolling, driver ejected (outside of the envelope) and died some days later.

yasirbhojani wrote:

Ok guys, I got the answer and I m sharing it here for your information only......Thoguh, I never thought that I would be posting the answer to my question myself......Ok, here goes:
I study in 10th grade and yesterday I asked my physics teacher ( Who also has interest in air force ) that how is cobra maneuver performed ??? he replied that an aircraft moves 4ward when the thrust from behind pushes it......So, when the thrust is directed to the ground ( when the nose faces up ), a time comes when the released thrust comes equal to the weight of the aircraft...When this happens, the aircraft stops in the air for a sec or two...It stops only for a second or two because it is really difficult to keep the released thrust equal to the aircraft weight..Most of the times, it is less than the aircraft weight and the other times, it is greater than the weight....So, here are the conclusions:

1- Every aircraft that can perform cobra, can perform it for even 15 or 20 seconds if the thrust is increased slightly with a difference of 1 or 2 sec so that the thrust remains equal to the weight continously....Thoguh, it is nearly impossible

2- F-15 can perform cobra maneuver if it releases the same amount of thrust equal to its weight or if it is fitted with a new and high thrust releaser engine

3- Thrust vectoring nozzles are not neccessary but can cum in handy in real dogfights, as it helps to produce a massive movement and change in the direction of released thrust which makes it equl to the weight of the aircraft rapidly...

If u hv any other questions, ask here and I'll confirm it from him in terms of physics.....

Your teacher is flat out wrong. As far as a fighter is concerned if its flying along and you direct the thrust toward the ground, its nose is going to go down. I don't know where this 'released thrust' stuff came from. It does not stop in mid-air during a Cobra type maneuver...EVER. There is always forward flight. Every conclusion you have is wrong. This is a whole seperate topic and should have a seperate thread. Your original question about the airbrakes...While it may be possible to take-off with a long roll, it would never happen. It would be like asking your teacher to drive his car to work knowing the brakes were out. Same applies here...if the airbrake on the jet was stuck deployed out prior to take-off, the jet is then Code 3 and would return...if it left...to the line for maintenance.

Quote:

Your teacher is flat out wrong. As far as a fighter is concerned if its flying along and you direct the thrust toward the ground, its nose is going to go down. I don't know where this 'released thrust' stuff came from. It does not stop in mid-air during a Cobra type maneuver...EVER. There is always forward flight. Every conclusion you have is wrong. This is a whole seperate topic and should have a seperate thread. Your original question about the airbrakes...While it may be possible to take-off with a long roll, it would never happen. It would be like asking your teacher to drive his car to work knowing the brakes were out. Same applies here...if the airbrake on the jet was stuck deployed out prior to take-off, the jet is then Code 3 and would return...if it left...to the line for maintenance.

If my teacher is wrong, so are you,...Atleast there would be some people who believe that my teacher gave the correct answer.....But no one would beleive you.....When thrust is directed towards ground, the nose moves up, how can the nose move down too ????
And about stopping, that's the only ability that american fighters have yet to master.....
Thirdly, about car applying brakes, so, if u have not forgotten, the car does not use the afterburners or nozzles to increase speed....

First check yourself before blaming on others....

Wow...I'll let someone else tear you up then...oh and trust me...you've been checked...hard.

I have no comments on your this post.....

At least a bug can do it!

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Finland- ... 0886189/M/

Hornet has a quite slow max speed with gears extended / in transit so airbrake is needed in this air show program to perform a low angel of climb, full burner take off.

Once I was operating the arresting gear on a airfield with a Hornet coming in for an arrested landing with a suspected nose gear steering failure. I should also mention here that a new arresting gear had just been installed. First try sit nicely about 15m before the wire but didn't catch it. In next approach the pilot landed the plane at least 300m before the wire to make sure that the hook is stabilized before the wire (bad procedure IMHO, because if the plane would depart from the runway, I would be standing straight in its path.). He also opened the airbrake for some reason like in normal non-arrested landing. Guess did the hook catch the wire this time? Right! So another go around was performed and the airbrake was retracted after some five seconds in steep climb =D. Third appempt also skipped the wire but this time pilot kept the plane on the ground and on the runway. Later it was found out that the concrete at center of the runway, just before the wire, formed a little ramp that threw the hook over the wire.

yasirbhojani wrote:

Quote:

Your teacher is flat out wrong. As far as a fighter is concerned if its flying along and you direct the thrust toward the ground, its nose is going to go down. I don't know where this 'released thrust' stuff came from. It does not stop in mid-air during a Cobra type maneuver...EVER. There is always forward flight. Every conclusion you have is wrong. This is a whole seperate topic and should have a seperate thread. Your original question about the airbrakes...While it may be possible to take-off with a long roll, it would never happen. It would be like asking your teacher to drive his car to work knowing the brakes were out. Same applies here...if the airbrake on the jet was stuck deployed out prior to take-off, the jet is then Code 3 and would return...if it left...to the line for maintenance.

If my teacher is wrong, so are you,...Atleast there would be some people who believe that my teacher gave the correct answer.....But no one would beleive you.....When thrust is directed towards ground, the nose moves up, how can the nose move down too ????
And about stopping, that's the only ability that american fighters have yet to master.....
Thirdly, about car applying brakes, so, if u have not forgotten, the car does not use the afterburners or nozzles to increase speed....

First check yourself before blaming on others....

yasirbhojani - Ya might just wanna back off a bit here as checksixx actually flies fighters for a living IIRC and really does know what he's talking about Wink

If we take a look at the picture I've attached, we can see that if the nozzle were to point the thrust at the ground, the reaction would be equal and opposite and as this force now acting toward the aircraft would be at the end of the jet, would cause the jet to rotate about its center of gravity, thus pointing the nose down Smile

I'm pretty sure this is what Checksixx was thinking Smile

What you might have meant is that you want to point the nose up and the tail down to point the thrust at the ground. That wasn't very well conveyed, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as your english isn't perfect and it appears to be a second language. It's easy to lose the intended meaning in that case.

However, even if that were the case, there's still a problem with the theory. The problem is that you can yank the nose up all you want, but in just about any aircraft you'll stall before you get the tail to go around like a Cobra. It's not all about thrust, its also about critical angle of attack, effectiveness of control surfaces, force moments from the center of gravity and a whole lot more when discussing aerodynamics. your teacher is a physics guy - a physicist. Go ask an aerodynamicist.

The point about driving with the brakes on was not whether or not it can be done - we know it can. A friend of mine once burned out the back brakes on my car by forgetting to take the parking brake off. The point is that there is no reason for this to be attempted. The jet will not be allowed to fly as it is fundamentally defective with the brake inoperable - either open or closed.

yasirbhojani wrote:

Actually, thanx guys for explaining me....It's not in my culture.....The thing is that I have blind trust on him....He is my favourite teacher....He has done his master's in this and so, I believe him blindly.....Even, though if he is incorect, I'll accept that he is correct if even the whole world says he is wrong....He have memorized ll alpha, beta and the value's of every constant by heart....This is not easy....So, I respect him a lot.....
And besides this, I don't see any wrong thing in that, and every thing makes sense.....

I didn't catch this post until later or I wouldn't have bothered with that stuff I just wrote. If your teacher is always right, then with all due respect, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING ASKING US ABOUT IT IF WE'RE AUTOMATICALLY WRONG???

I'm done with this thread and now to go investigate whether or not this guy's a poser...

Last edited by TC on Oct 05, 2008 - 07:19 PM; edited 2 times in total

Parrothead is right, and so is checksixx.

The vectored thrust toads point their nozzles upward if they want to climb on vectored thrust (nozzles go up, and the tail goes down, pointy end goes up) and point them downward if they want to descend (nozzles go down, tail goes up, pointy end goes down).

No disrespect to the teach, but I'm more inclined to trust Sir Isaac Newton over some "suit" in a high school. I once had a math "teacher" (and I use that term VERY loosely) who gave a football player (who couldn't even SPELL Algebra!!) an A because he let her give him a...oh wait, gotta keep it Disney Channel here. Wink

Mach2 was also correct a page or two back, and I'll restate it for all the kiddies in the class who are wowed by Sierra that they see at airshows: The Cobra serves no functional purpose as an actual dogfighting maneuver! In combat, he's full of fuel, and has a combat load. Higher weight, means more drag, which also means decreased performance.

Also, what Mach2 said about the potential for his first AA kill, I found this excellent quote:

Commenting on Russian airshow maneuvers, one American fighter pilot said, "Give me KINETIC energy any day and I'll take his POTENTIAL energy and shove it up his @$$!" Laughing

parrothead wrote:

I'm done with this thread and now to go investigate whether or not this guy's a poser...

A little bit of research and I can say that opinions aside, yasirbhojani is not a poser and is actually in a country other than the U.S. that operates F-16s.

Yah, now let me clear things up.....Firstly, parrothead, I asked the question from u guys as I m only 14 years old and I don't know more than you guys...When, I didn't got the answer that I was expecting, I had to find other ways....One of them was to ask my physics teacher....I don't blame you....It's just that u replied a little late and so I had no other option.....Secondly, about the poser thingy, if this is your final guess that I am a poser, then nothing could change your thoughts, but if u want a proof, here it is, a link to my artworks....I don't think that anyone could make such unaccurate artworks if he is over 14 years old....Now, I don't want any discussion, remarks or opinions on my artwork as I know that none of them is accurate but then again, it's not the actual topic too...

http://www.paffalcons.com/gallery/aviat ... /index.php

And about the thing Jeff said, its 100 percent true...I live in Pakstan, if u have read other posts of mine, and in case you don't know, Pakistan have F-16's......If these artworks fail in making you beleive that I am not a poser, I don't care....Go on thinking that I am a poser.....And I think it is obvious that no one can make so many artworks in one day....That also proves that I am doing these since one year and I think, I am improving at this...And also, most of these, matches with the artworks of some other artists or from pictures, so I don't take any credit....

And thirdly, I never said that u guys were wrong....The thing which made me mad, was that many of you insulted him.....And, I can't bear the insult of my teachers.....If you would have just told me the right thing, the situation would have been handeled nicely...But, you insulted him....So, it made me angry.....

I have tried to respect everyone of you and talk to you gently, but what I got in return, insult and humiliation.....

About the language, I know that my english is not accurate....Coz, its my second language and also, I am in process, meaning that I haven't mastered english yet as I am just a student myself who loves airforce.......That's it...And anywayz, where did u find my english going bad or crazy ???? Why can't you talk to me gently ??? I tried my best not to break any one's heart....I liked the way of "TC" and I appreciate it too as he said no disrespect to the teacher...I never said that my teacher was always right.....It was, what you understood....I wrote clearly that " I believe him blindly.....Even, though if he is incorect, I'll accept that he is correct if even the whole world says he is wrong..."

It was just a statement that explained that I had a lot of trust in him and so, I can't bear his insult....

I never knew that a question which I was just wandering, would lead to so much insult and humiliation....

Now, suppose that if he would have been right, I shared the info just to increase knowledge...Isn't it, if he would have bee right, You would have been thankful to me....This is not a debate or a war, its just a discussion....I wanted to get some info about these topics and wanted you guys to get some more info too...But, u ruined all of it.....

And finally, about the need to take off with brakes, I know that its not needed in any situation but was just wandering that could planes do such things or not....Simple.....

Anywayz, I m out of this...

And yah one more thing, I don't want my religion to come in this discussion because I could not bare it.....So, please avoid talking about my religion in this....

Yasir,

Please accept an apology if you have been offended. No one intended to insult you, your English, your teacher, or your religion. The problem here is that we all have different ways in our culture to express disagreement. I lived in Asian countries for ten years, so I easily recognize problems of cultural differences. Westerners are much more open about telling people they are wrong than Asians, without causing offence. The Western way is not better than your way, just different. When we criticize someone, it is not intended to insult them and no one worries about it. People in your culture are much more sensitive to criticism and take it as an insult. That is not better or worse than Western culture, just different.

Let me give you an example, please. You warn us not to bring your religion into this discussion because you could not bear it. No one would think of bringing your religion into the discussion, because it simply does not matter. A Westerner would never worry about such a thing, but you are concerned about it. I accept and understand that, because I understand cultural differences.

Please help me to understand something. In your culture, how do you tell your teacher you believe he is wrong without insulting him? This is a serious question, as I really want to know the answer. The biggest problems in the world today are caused by mis-understandings due to cultural differences. If we want to have a peaceful world, we must all try to understand other cultures.

About your English - How many of us can write as well as you in a second language? Most of us admire your capability, so don't worry about it.

I want to ask you to give us another chance, stay with us, and try to understand our discussions will never intentionally insult you or anything in your culture. You can learn from us and we can learn from you.

Thanx a lot johnwill.....This was a great help.....The answer to your question is that, if I would beleive that my teacher is wrong, I wouldn't just point him that you are wrong....I would try to convince him with proofs....For example:-

" Teacher, u once said that..............................., But I have read it in a book that if.................................., So, what does it mean ??? "

That way, he would learn about his mistake and his heart will not break too....
Thanx again for building up the support.....
Take care

Yasir, here's a little somthing I have just for you. I took these on my recent deployment.

We were headed "home" (read that, back to our deployed base) following an OEF run. They were taken just off of the coast of Pakistan, almost where the Arabian Sea meets the Gulf of Oman. That's something about flying all over the world. It doesn't matter where you are, the sunset looks the same.

Oh yeah, by the way, sorry for the bug guts and scratches folks. We were on an early 90s bird, and she was, unfortunately, "rode hard and hung up wet", as John Wayne would say. Enjoy!

Forum: F-16 Procedures

Can an F-16 or F-15 take-off with brakes applied?