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B-52 Crash



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tjodalv43
PostPosted: Jul 21, 2008 - 02:18 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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More bad news from Guam. B-52 went down, and so far no survivors have been found but they're still searching.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html
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Lurch
PostPosted: Jul 21, 2008 - 03:13 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Hope they find them.

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Asif
PostPosted: Jul 21, 2008 - 03:24 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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shreveporttimes.com wrote:

Barksdale confirms missing bomber is local
By John Andrew Prime • jprime@gannett.com • July 21, 2008


A Barksdale B-52 bomber deployed to Andersen Air Force Base is missing and feared lost in the waters off Guam, 2nd Bomb Wing and news sources on the island territory say.

The loss occurred just before 10:30 a.m. Monday, Guam time, or around 8:15 p.m. Shreveport time. That was when Col. Robert Wheeler, 2nd Bomb Wing commander, said he learned of the incident and efforts under way to find any wreckage and the crew members.

"Something did happen with one of our bombers," he said tonight. "It appears one of the jets has crashed."

He said information on the tail number of the airplane and the crew members isn't being released at this time, while efforts to find the personnel are underway.

Coast Guard Lt. Lee Putnam told Guam TV station KUAM that searchers are 25 nautical miles northwest of Apra Harbor and that the Coast Guard Cutter Assateague was called to respond, as well as four other boats. The station also said two Navy HSC25 aircraft are also in the area searching for the six crew members on the aircraft.

At the time of crash, weather in Guam was generally warm humid and fair, with isolated moderate rain showers and winds from the southeast at 5 to 10 mph.

Squadrons from Barksdale rotate to the Pacific bastion to project power in the region, to provide assets to forward commanders and for training. Now, most of the airplanes there are from the base's 20th Bomb Squadron, he said. But, Wheeler added, some personnel are from the 96th Bomb Squadron and the Reserves, so he could not definitively say the airplane or people were from one squadron or another.

The B-52 bomber, flying since 1952 and part of the Air Force arsenal since 1955, is a remarkably robust aircraft.

The last crash of the type was on June 24, 1994, when a bomber practicing for an air show at Fairchild Air Force Base, near Spokane, Wash., crashed, killing all four crew members. The cause of that crash was determined to be recklessness on the part of the pilot, who banked the airplane too steeply at too low an altitude.

Prior to that, the last B-52 to crash was in early February 1991, when an airplane returning from a Desert Storm mission crashed into the Indian Ocean 15 miles north of Diego Garcia. The cause of the crash, which killed three of the six crew members, was determined to have been an electrical failure.

The accident is the second for the Air Force this year on Guam, a U.S. territory 3,700 miles southwest of Hawaii.

In February, a B-2 crashed there shortly after takeoff in the first-ever crash of that type. Both pilots ejected safely. The military estimated the cost of the loss of the aircraft at $1.4 billion, according to the Associated Press.

According to KUAM, 36th Wing Public Affairs Sgt. Stephen Teel said a B-52 was scheduled to participate in a flyover during a parade in Guam remembering the U.S. liberation of the island from Japanese occupation in 1944. But he did not confirm the missing aircraft was that bomber.

The station said Federal Aviation Administration personnel there are checking tapes and radar displays to review events that led up to the crash. The B-52 left Andersen Air Force Base at 9 a.m. local time, and was lost on radar just under 90 minutes later.

"We are always worried about the possibility of loss," Wheeler said, adding at this time his concern is for the families of the deployed crew members.

The Air Force said a board of officers will investigate the accident.

source: http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbc ... 1/80720010

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Gums
PostPosted: Jul 22, 2008 - 01:06 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Salute all!

This does not look good.

Latest report I have is two crew found, deceased.

Any buff folks here? How many folks eject up and how many down?

My sad reading of this is "controlled flight into terrain/sea". This is despite an early morning time - daylight. 30 miles out seems a bit far for a descent to final altitude, but we'll see. No good weather report yet, so that may have been a factor.

Remember that I figured out the Blue Angel incident last year when no one wanted to admit it could be the pilot and not the plane.

Sad, sad

Gums sends ....

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Unwin
PostPosted: Jul 22, 2008 - 02:50 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I think they eject 4 up 2 down. Not positive though. Kind of a somber mood here watching all the HSC25 helos and fighters going out to look for those missing 4. I just hope they find the rest of the crew one way or another and prey for them and their families.
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Guysmiley
PostPosted: Jul 22, 2008 - 03:43 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Unwin wrote:
I think they eject 4 up 2 down. Not positive though. Kind of a somber mood here watching all the HSC25 helos and fighters going out to look for those missing 4. I just hope they find the rest of the crew one way or another and prey for them and their families.


Yeah, 4 up (pilot, copilot, EW and former gunner seat) and 2 down (navigator and radar navigator). Sad
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biffbutkus
PostPosted: Jul 22, 2008 - 05:52 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Gums wrote:
Salute all!

This does not look good.

Latest report I have is two crew found, deceased.

Any buff folks here? How many folks eject up and how many down?

My sad reading of this is "controlled flight into terrain/sea". This is despite an early morning time - daylight. 30 miles out seems a bit far for a descent to final altitude, but we'll see. No good weather report yet, so that may have been a factor.

Remember that I figured out the Blue Angel incident last year when no one wanted to admit it could be the pilot and not the plane.

Sad, sad

Gums sends ....


Ex Buff guy here. I was in the 20th BS for awhile back in 94-95 time frame. Sad news Sad

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Asif
PostPosted: Jul 22, 2008 - 02:42 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Stars & Stripes wrote:

Search for four missing airmen continues after B-52 crash off Guam
By Teri Weaver, Stars and Stripes
Pacific edition, Wednesday, July 23, 2008
Updated Tuesday, July 22, at 6 a.m. EDT

TOKYO – As military and local rescue units in Guam continued a search Tuesday evening for four missing airmen from the previous day’s B-52 crash, the mood turned more somber.

“Although we continue to hold out hope, we’ve had no encouraging indicators that our airmen survived this crash,” Brig. Gen. Douglas Owens, the commander of the 36th Wing at Andersen Air Force Base on Guam, said in a release.

The bodies of two members of the six-person crew were recovered Monday after the morning crash at sea. Military officials have not identified any of the six pending family notifications.

A family member in Ohio identified one of the six airmen as Col. George Martin, a doctor in the medical command at Andersen, according to reports from WBNS 10TV in Columbus.

The five other members are from Barksdale Air Force Base, La., as part of a unit currently deployed to Guam.

On Tuesday afternoon, search crews from the Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Guam’s police and fire departments were working in a 900-mile radius beginning from the crash site, about 25 miles northwest of Guam, according the release. They were searching waters about 1,000 meters deep, according to spokesman Capt. Joel Stark.

The B-52H Stratofortress crashed about 9:45 a.m. Monday, local time, about 45 minutes after it took off from Andersen with no weapons or munitions aboard, according to Air Force and Federal Aviation Administration officials.

The plane was on a training flight that was to include participation in the island’s Liberation Day celebration, according to the Air Force.

Col. Robert Wheeler, commander of Barksdale’s 2nd Bomb Wing, told reporters in Louisiana that the aircraft went down because of a “mishap,” according to multiple media reports.

“We don’t have a lot of facts at this point,” Wheeler said at a news conference, according to the Shreveport Times.

The Air Force has said a board of officers will investigate the crash. The status of the investigation was unknown Tuesday afternoon.

Equipment and personnel involved in the search on Tuesday included two Coast Guard ships, the USS John McCain from Yokosuka Naval Base, Japan, Navy helicopters from Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron 25, F-15Es from the 389th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, and a Navy P-3 Orion from Kadena Air Base in Okinawa.

The Coast Guard was on the scene within 45 minutes of the crash, according to Owens. Searchers found debris there, according to a Coast Guard spokeswoman. The large search area is, in part, in case any crew members were able to eject before the crash, she said.

“We recognize, however, that the longer this search continues the less likelihood there is that we’ll find survivors,” Owens said in the press release. “Our hearts and prayers go out to all the family members and friends of our missing aircrew as we continue our search and rescue efforts.”

Stark said the search efforts are to continue overnight.

Martin, a military doctor for more than 25 years, was identified by his sister, Clarissa Clark, according to WBNS. He was a graduate of Ohio State University Medical School and a physician for NASA, the television station reported.

It was unclear why he was aboard the plane. The B-52 is normally crewed by a five-person team, according to the Air Force’s Web site.

The B-52, the military’s longest range bomber, was deployed to Andersen from Barksdale, according to an Air Force release. The deployment is part of the Air Force’s rotation that routinely sends fighters and bombers to Guam. There are now eight B-52s at Andersen, Stark said.

Guam’s Liberation Day celebrates July 21, 1944, when U.S. Forces captured the Japanese-held island.

source: http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?sect ... icle=56280

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Lightndattic
PostPosted: Jul 22, 2008 - 02:48 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Dad was in the 96th up thru '96. I spent more time on the flightline than any dependent should have been able to in the 8 years I lived at Barksdale.

Brother in law is in the 20th now. I haven't talked to him about it, but I don't think he'd have any info.

I'm wondering why they were flying 6 crew on this flight.
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ATFS_Crash
PostPosted: Jul 22, 2008 - 05:49 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Gums wrote:
My sad reading of this is "controlled flight into terrain/sea"


I would agree that your speculation is highly probable. So far I’ve heard no word of a distress call indicating problems before they crashed, so that makes me suspect like you "controlled flight into terrain/sea".

Though it’s far from conclusive, that’s my hunch.

It sounds like it may be have been a form of "spatial disorientation" or and "channelized attention" phenomenon. Perhaps an instrument failure or some other distraction was a contributing factor or causation.

It will be interesting to see what the accident investigation reveals.
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Asif
PostPosted: Jul 23, 2008 - 11:48 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Air Combat Command wrote:

Officials name downed B-52 aircrew members

7/23/2008 - BARKSDALE AIR FORCE BASE, La. (AFPN) -- Air Force officials have released the names of the Barksdale crew members of the B-52 that crashed July 21 off Guam's northwest coast. Five of the six crew members were stationed here.

They are Maj. Christopher M. Cooper, 33, aircraft commander; Maj. Brent D. Williams, 37, navigator; Capt. Michael K. Dodson, 31, co-pilot; 1st Lt. Joshua D. Shepherd, 26, navigator; and 1st Lt. Robert D Gerren, 32, electronic warfare officer.

The sixth crew member was Col. George Martin, flight surgeon and deputy commander of 36th Medical Group at Andersen Air Force Base, Guam.

The Barksdale Airmen were deployed to Guam with the 20th Expeditionary Bomb Squadron as part of DOD's continuous bomber presence mission in the Pacific.

"Our thoughts and prayers continue to be with the families of these Airmen," said Col. Robert Wheeler, 2d Bomb Wing commander. "We appreciate the military and civilian organizations who are continuing recovery efforts to bring our Airmen home."

A board of officers is investigating the accident.

source: http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123107856

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Elliboom
PostPosted: Jul 28, 2008 - 08:27 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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If I had to guess I would say it's one of two things, either they were flipping circles waiting for their flyby time, they got slow and spun in, or they were skimming the water waiting for their time and drove it right into the water. Either way most likely pilot/crew error, I hope for the sake of the families it ends up being a simple mistake and not that they were scrweing around and got themselves killed.

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Gums
PostPosted: Aug 02, 2008 - 12:20 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Salute!

Heard from some buff troops on another blog/BB.

Trying to figure out who they found, as sounds like they ejected real low. Maybe even upon impact. If they had not ejected, I would rate probability of recovering a body real low.

We lost 5 Viper pilots my last two years at Hill, and best we got was some DNA smears from 4 and most of the body from the fifth. All were "controlled" flight into terrain ( but two or three were kinda negligent controlled flight - 'nuff said).

The other blogs seem to focus on a mechanical or structural failure versus pilot error. But you never know and they don't have the recorders that the Viper has. We lost an airliner 30 years ago when the crew was trouble-shooting a landing gear light and the autopilot disconnected. So any cause is fair game.

One troop talked about a mysterious loss from Guam just after takeoff and they didn't find anything - no big plane parts, no crew, nada. He was a Buff bomb-nav who flew with me over Hanoi ( I was in Sluf, he in the Buff, back in blitz of 1972)

I don't think that this one is like the infamous Fairchild crash involving a rogue pilot who should have been grounded and not taken 4 or 5 other folks with him.

Jury is still out on this one, and I raise my toast to those who love the vastness of the sky and gave their all of old.

Gums sends .....

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PostPosted: May 23, 2009 - 07:00 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Just an update.....

B-52 accident report released

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Air Combat Command Public Affairs

2/13/2009 - LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. (ACCNS) -- An improper stabilizer trim setting caused the
July 21 crash of an Air Force B-52 aircraft northwest of Guam, according to an Air Combat Command accident investigation board report released today.

Analysis of aircraft parts found during salvage operations revealed the aircraft's stabilizer trim was set between approximately 4.5 and 5.0 degrees nose-down at impact. According to the investigation board, this indicates an improper stab trim setting of an aircraft in a nose low descent at low altitude.

The stabilizer trim is a control function used in conjunction with the aircraft's elevator to control the pitch of the aircraft. Pilots will first push or pull on the aircraft yoke to use the elevator to change pitch. They will then use stabilizer trim to ease handling of the aircraft. The stabilizer trim moves the stabilizer so that the desired pitch is held with the elevator in a neutral position.
Through extensive interviews, and using radar data with simulator and computer modeling, the accident board was able to simulate the turn, descent and aircraft crash. With this modeling, they were able to rule out multiple other causes and scenarios due to lack of supporting evidence.

Based on the generated profile and recovered aircraft parts, the board focused on possible problems with the stabilizer trim function. With no surviving aircrew members, no emergency radio calls and with minimal recovered aircraft control systems or instruments, the specific reason the stabilizer trim was mis-positioned could not be determined by the AIB.

The AIB president also found that the combination of low altitude with a descending left turn of the mishap aircraft and late recognition of the serious nature of the situation by the aircrew contributed to the mishap. The board noted that any experienced aircrew could have found it difficult to recognize, assess and recover from the rapidly developing situation involving the stabilizer trim setting.

Six Airmen perished in this accident: Maj. Christopher Cooper, aircraft commander; Capt. Michael Dodson, copilot; Maj. Brent Williams, radar navigator; 1st Lt. Joshua Shepherd, navigator; 1st Lt. Robert Gerren (posthumously promoted to the grade of Captain, United States Air Force, effective 11 October 2007), electronic warfare officer; and Col. George Martin, flight surgeon. Their remains were laid to rest in a ceremony held Nov. 14 at Arlington National Cemetery.

The B-52 aircrew was flying a training mission that included a flyby in support of the Guam Liberation Day celebration. The B-52 was assigned to the 20th Bomb Squadron, Barksdale Air Force Base, Louisiana, and temporarily assigned to the 20th Expeditionary Bomb Squadron, Andersen AFB, Guam. The aircraft was deployed to Guam as part of the Department of Defense's continuous bomber presence mission in the Pacific.

All the crewmembers were assigned to Barksdale AFB, La., except Colonel Martin, who was assigned to the 36th Medical Group, Andersen Air Force Base, Guam, at the time of the accident.

For the AIB report, click here.

For more information, call the ACC Public Affairs office at (757) 764-5007 or
e-mail accpa.operations@langley.af.mil.

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ATFS_Crash
PostPosted: May 23, 2009 - 03:26 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Quote:
An improper stabilizer trim setting caused the
July 21 crash
of an Air Force B-52 aircraft northwest of Guam, according to an Air Combat Command accident investigation board report released today.

Analysis of aircraft parts found during salvage operations revealed the aircraft's stabilizer trim was set between approximately 4.5 and 5.0 degrees nose-down at impact. According to the investigation board, this indicates an improper stab trim setting of an aircraft in a nose low descent at low altitude.

Huh? This conclusion doesn't somehow ring true to me or make sense. (Not that I have any first-hand or specific knowledge or training that would specifically apply to the B-52.)

Could someone please explain how they allegedly arrived at this conclusion? Perhaps it's bad reporting (the facts being taken out of context. An inaccurate summation. As typically is).

I could see the trim settings being a symptom or a contributing factor; but I'm somewhat skeptical that they are the end causation.

Perhaps there was poor fuel management or loadout management resulting in the tail heavy configuration. A tail heavy CG might explain the excessive down trim. With an excessive tail heavy loadout you can use the trim tabs to compensate to make level flight more easy; however the slower that you fly the more trim that will be necessary and the aircraft will become more deadly (unstable/uncontrollable). This can increase the odds of a loss of control resulting stall, snap roll, spin.

It's a longshot but sometimes a trim adjustment can be used to compensate for a structural failure. Such as if a horizontal stabilizer was slightly out of place because of fatigue cracks or bent/cracked from excessive stress.

In the two of many possible scenarios I listed, an unusual trim adjustment would be more of a symptom rather than a causation.

Sometimes an unusual trim adjustment can be a symptom/indicator of poor fuel management, load management, icing, a structure that is starting to fail, etc....

-----

On a different crash that I want a draw some possible parallels is Continental Flight 3407/Colgan Air Flight 3407.

I'm wondering if Continental Flight 3407 was tail heavy due to to icing. I suspect they may have ignored or overlooked some of the symptoms of icing, such as trim change. The undertrained and poorly experienced crew made many fatal mistakes. The pilot apparently entered the wrong approach speed into the computer which apparently made the stick shaker activate prematurely; yet the pilot took the inappropriate action of pulling back on the stick. The pilot was apparently confused by the apparent premature stall warning, but apparently ironically the stall warning wasn't premature because of the icing conditions. The pilot confusion, mistakes and lack of training and experience may have led him to make his final mistake and pull back on the stick when he was entering a stall condition; thusly deepening the stall and causing loss of control.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continenta ... light_3407

(not that I'm necessarily trying to say that the B-52 crew was undertrained or poorly experienced. I'm merely stating that a tail heavy condition may have been a contributor factor and that some of the symptoms such as trim adjustments may have been overlooked due to pilot complacency. If an unusual trim position is needed to maintain normal flight; that often can be a warning sign to pilots of a developing problem; such as a fuel leak, poor fuel management, load shift, poor loadout configuration, or icing)

----

I normally agree with crash investigation findings. Not that I'm going to go as far as to say that their conclusions is wrong. However in these two cases I have a higher than normal degree of skepticism, and feel that there may be more to the story.

-----

I feel that Colgan Air Flight 3407 was a systemic problem (the problem is part of a larger phenomenon throughout the industry). I feel the older pilots are being retired due to the economy so that the industry can hire pilots with less experience at a lower pay rate. I feel because the economy is bad, competition is high and customers prioritize cheap tickets; the end result is reduce safety. I feel that there is a "puppy mill" pilot phenomena; where government regulations and procedures that are actually designed to supposedly increased safety; may actually reduce safety because of complacency induced by overconfidence in procedure/bureaucracy. I feel that it's becoming more common for pilots to strap their plan on; rather than to actually fly them. Textbook experience is great. However I think it is important to have a lot of hands-on training and experience on a wide variety of aircraft in vast conditions. I think it is pitiful than a high school dropout managing a fast food restaurant could easily earn more than some regional airline pilots $17,000. I think it's scary how little & narrow the training and experience the PIC had. I think it's scary that the industry, the unions, the government and the public essentially encourages such situations.

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