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Elite Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1082 Status: Offline

It was used as a synonym to the guy who called me a sheep, in case you missed that part, and despite the minutae of the manufacturer of the flavored drink in Jonestown, "Kool-Aid" is the accepted vernacular for this particular reference. Don't like snarky retorts, probably shouldn't begin with a snarky reply.....I'm just sayin'.

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Elite Joined: Jul 30, 2005 Posts: 739 Status: Offline

Loomis wrote:

Yep....I wrote it....do you?
Yes. It's a good calibration point on the ignorance of the user. The "drink the Kool-Aid" is based on references to the Jonestown massacre. However, it was actually Flavor-Aid that was used there. Anyone who uses the "drink the Kool-Aid" snark is pretty much guilty of what they're quacking about -- blind following of a trend without actually checking the facts.

Or just maybe "drink the kool-aid" could quite possibly have another meaning than the one you are talking about. Check yourself before you start calling out other folks. When you find out what afterburner's definition of "drinking the kool-aid" is, get back with me. Thanks.

Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 Posts: 439

Quote:

false pretenses war

What false pretense for war? Many fascist liberals and other terrorist supporters that claim to be “peace activists” often claim that Bush lied to promote the war.

May I remind you that the facts are that Iraq had over a decade to comply with the peace agreement; they did not, by their own default it was war.

Sure not all of the intelligence that the war was based on was correct; have you ever heard of the “fog of war”. I don’t think there has ever been a war that the intelligence was entirely correct and there wasn’t some element of exaggerated or misleading propaganda.

The fact remains that despite the pathological liars that claim that there wasn’t any WMDs: contrary to the claims, the fact is that there was WMD’s. The weapons inspectors and UN even agreed that there was many violations over many years. It’s even documented that there was over 500 WMD’s in Iraq. Iraq even fired SCUD missiles at the coalition and civilians. Some coalition soldiers even got sick from chemical weapons that were used as IED’s or WMD stockpiles that were mixed in with conventional weapons stockpiles that were being disposed of.

Iraq Did Have Weapons Of Mass Destruction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwzQYAGbqs

Iraqi defector talks about biological weapons (1997)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDJ79A_cMQY

Transcripts of Saddam Hussein Plotting to Use WMDs Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYvU0dBENOw

Transcripts of Saddam Hussein Plotting to Use WMDs Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5p8ssn5Lhg

George S Patton's New Speech-Iraq & modern world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyUX6wV1lBQ

Remember that operation Iraq freedom also prevented Saddam Hussein from developing and using nuclear weapons. The coalition confiscated about 1.8 tons of highly refined uranium, that if enriched it could have possibly been used to make 1-4 fission weapons , or many dirty bombs.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1 ... 04,00.html

In addition there was over 500 tons of “natural uranium” stockpiled just south of Baghdad.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=38213

Yet pathological liars claim there wasn’t any WMD’s in Iraq.

People are whining and complaining with oil at just four dollars a gallon/ 150 barrel. What do you think the world’s reaction would be if Saddam would have been allowed to develop and use WMD’s to decimate the Middle East and its oil fields? What do you think the world’s reaction would be to seeing oil prices go up to $2000 a barrel within a week or overnight? Do you think it could ruin the world’s economy and trigger a military domino effect and possibly even Armageddon?

Quote:

Kool-Aid

For those who may not know what Kool-Aid refers to. Kool-Aid is a pleasant sweet tasting artificial fruit drink ( much like fascist liberal propaganda). It also refers to fascist liberals like Marshall Applewhite; the Heaven’s Gate leader that got his followers to drink a poison laced Kool-Aid like drink, so they could allegedly hop a ride on the alien space craft that was cloaked behind the comet Hale-Bopp. Or the likes of Jim Jones that got his followers to drink a poison laced Kool-Aid like drink, to ascend and to avoid a “conspiracy of government suppression”. Or the likes of a school bus full of hippies that drove across the country in a school bus distributing LSD in a Kool-Aid like drink and promoting it as a safe and harmless and helpful drug of Enlightenment.

In a political sense Kool-Aid usually refers to sweet/pleasant popular misleading Fascist Liberal rhetoric that is in reality poisonous/harmful to society.

Sheep and lemmings jump on the bandwagon and drink the Kool-Aid in blind obedience.

Loomis wrote:

another nod to political correctness
So...you're in favor of children being injured by dud submunitions?

So you think the intent of cluster weapons is to kill children?

The harsh reality is; I would rather some children die than to have manyfold children die.

StolichnayaStrafer wrote:

Political Correctness will continue to inhibit the military.

Our country is the #1 worrier about collateral damage.

That is why we will never win anything decisively.

Regrettably I largely agree with you. We are being penny wise and pound foolish; in a manner that we might lose and might bankrupt us. We are trying to fight this war in a narrowminded politically correct fashion; excessively limit the casualties and damages. With a narrow minded politically correct fixation on keeping the war short and popular. The result has been largely on the contrary. Though in the short term the casualties and the damages have been very low, the long-term casualties and damages are creeping up; and the possibility of a good outcome is diminishing.

Part of the reason that Japan and Germany reformed and recovered so well from World War II is that they had their spirit beaten, thusly they were more willing to capitulate and except peace and become productive members of society. Since we’ve kept the gloves on for the Iraq war, I suspect there will be more rebellion and the long-term goals will be harder to reach and there is a higher likelihood of failure. Fighting a politically correct war can also be very expensive; and can be very futile and prolonged and ineffective.

Part of the reason there has been so much fighting in Iraq is because so many of the Iraqis don’t feel beaten. Sometimes his best to beat an enemy hard in the first place to demoralize them, so that a long-term casualties will be lower and that a long-term peace is more likely to take.

Even if we did it Iraq hard I doubt the outcome would be as good as Japan and Germany. Japan and Germany had a very strong work ethic; whereas the many Iraqis lack good work ethic and on the contrary have a victim mentality. (much like on that PBS episode of carrier; where the Iranians mount an attack on a carrier as an attack or bluff attack on the carrier. Their vessel was sunk, the Iranians were rescued; the Iranians immediately started demanding compensation for the vessel that was sunk in the Iranian attack on the carrier). Another reason I think the outcome in Iraq may not be as good or as easy as it was in Japan or Germany is that in public schools they were openly taught to admire and emulate a chicken thief that murdered his way into power. So now we have tens of thousands of Iraqis that want to emulate Saddam Hussein and further their power by murdering their way into power.

This attitude that we should rebuild Iraq is ridiculous. Sure we should be responsible for trying to help them assist in rebuilding, however for the most part it should be the responsibility of the Iraqis themselves.

I think we should withdraw most of our troops as soon as reasonably possible; except I think we should leave a few troops at bases to be called in case Iraq falters or is invaded. I think we should maintain a few bases and ports so in case Iran invades or continues to develop WMDs that we could use a few bases and ports in Iraq to leapfrog into Iran.

Obamanite wrote:

Recognizing that old cluster bombs with a high dud rate are simply unacceptable in the battlefield these days I don't think constitutes political correctness.

Remember that not all cluster bombs are old. Remember that the US is one of the few countries that use smart cluster bombs and mines. We sometimes use mines that have a short life span that automatically destroy themselves over any given time to reduce the odds of civilian or peacetime casualties. Remember that we have also made smart cluster bombs that have a better chance of identifying friend from foe and discriminating military targets, thusly reducing civilian collateral damage. There was one cluster bomb with smart submunitions that took out about a third of the elite Iraqi guard tank column. The rest of the column turned tailed ran and scattered.

Also remember that if the Chinese chose to invade us, we don’t have enough bullets for all of them.

Yes I am in favor of decommissioning some of our older cluster munitions rather than spending the money to keep them in service; as long as we maintain a reasonably adequate means to defend ourselves without having to resort to narrowing our options to nuclear.

I still think there might be some cases where we might need some smart and dumb cluster munitions.

Elite Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1082 Status: Offline

akruse21 wrote:

Loomis wrote:

Yep....I wrote it....do you?
Yes. It's a good calibration point on the ignorance of the user. The "drink the Kool-Aid" is based on references to the Jonestown massacre. However, it was actually Flavor-Aid that was used there. Anyone who uses the "drink the Kool-Aid" snark is pretty much guilty of what they're quacking about -- blind following of a trend without actually checking the facts.

Or just maybe "drink the kool-aid" could quite possibly have another meaning than the one you are talking about. Check yourself before you start calling out other folks. When you find out what afterburner's definition of "drinking the kool-aid" is, get back with me. Thanks.

LOL, no that's the definition....somebody who blindly follows some form of "conventional wisdom" and is willing to "drink the Kool-Aid" if asked to by the messiah. Its a standard reply to somebody who drags out the "oh you're a sheep" because I have a decent memory and the ability to reason.

I did in fact learn something....I didn't realize that Flavor-Aid was the actual concoction used in Jonestown, but both Loomis and I live in Texas, where you order drinks like this:

"What do y'all want to drink?" (even if sitting alone)
"Coke"
"What kind of Coke?"
"Dr. Pepper is fine."

Elite Joined: May 26, 2005 Posts: 1093

Quote:

Iraq Did Have Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Yeah, we gave them to 'em.

Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 Posts: 439

Guysmiley wrote:

Yeah, we gave them to 'em.

To the best of my knowledge your statement is untrue. To the best of my knowledge the US government never illegally gave Iraq WMDs. (Not that I'm saying my knowledge or memory is perfect or infallible. By far so)

However that doesn’t mean that Iraq didn’t use materials or weapons in a manner that they could be used as WMD’s.

In case you don’t remember, let me remind you. In case you don’t know, let me educate you.

Remember that Iraq used anthrax cultures for vaccines that was legally purchased as cultures for vaccines, and use them to produce biological weapons. Remember that Iraq legally purchased chemicals under the guise for the manufacture of pesticides or other industrial uses, and used the chemicals to make chemical weapons. Remember that Iraq made arrangements to start a nuclear power electrical generation program, but was siphoning much of the technology, manpower and materials to a weapons nuclear weapons program.

Ever since we made a partnership with Saddam, Saddam continued to abuse the partnership, which resulted in stricter laws, making it harder for Saddam to get materials and technology for his WMD programs. Even then he continued to skate around the laws, so even more laws and sanctions were made against him. Remember that he then invaded Kuwait, and then even further laws and sanctions were made against them and inspections were made a requirement.

If I remember correctly: the Soviets made a deal to sell several hundred SA-2 missile engines to Iraq shortly before operation Iraqi freedom. The engines were illegally put into what the media called “SCUD” missiles which I think was actually the Al-Samud II. Should I say the sale proves that the Soviets were illegally selling WMD’s to Iraq? To the best of my knowledge, the Soviets were not in violation because they allegedly thought that the engines were going to be used for defensive purposes in surface-to-air missiles. In any case Iraq was in violation of the peace treaty and of WMD agreements that that Iraq was diverting these missiles to the “SCUD” program to be used in the likes of the Al-Samud II. I think the Al-Samud II was in violation of range and payload stipulations, therefore classified as WMDs.

Using your logic, the Soviets were giving the Iraqis WMD’s. I would not agree with that, unless I knew at the time of the sale that the Soviets knew that the rocket engines were going to be put into the Al-Samud II.

The only country that I’m aware of that has prosecuted its own citizens/companies for illegally selling the Iraqis barred hardware and raw materials; is the US. So to the best of my knowledge the US is the only country to have credibility on this matter, because to the best of my knowledge other countries have let their citizens and companies slide on illegal sales.

So I guess using your logic, you would think France sold Iraq the nuclear bomb? I would consider that a slight stretch of the truth, to the best of my knowledge. Though in 2020 hindsight, it wasn’t such a bright idea, nor was selling Iraq to live anthrax vaccine culture, etc….

Former president of France, Jacques Chirac giving Saddam Hussein the VIP sales tour for nuclear technology.

Veteran Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 286 Status: Offline

ATFS_Crash wrote:

Obamanite wrote:

Recognizing that old cluster bombs with a high dud rate are simply unacceptable in the battlefield these days I don't think constitutes political correctness.

Remember that not all cluster bombs are old. Remember that the US is one of the few countries that use smart cluster bombs and mines. We sometimes use mines that have a short life span that automatically destroy themselves over any given time to reduce the odds of civilian or peacetime casualties. Remember that we have also made smart cluster bombs that have a better chance of identifying friend from foe and discriminating military targets, thusly reducing civilian collateral damage. There was one cluster bomb with smart submunitions that took out about a third of the elite Iraqi guard tank column. The rest of the column turned tailed ran and scattered.

Also remember that if the Chinese chose to invade us, we don’t have enough bullets for all of them.

Yes I am in favor of decommissioning some of our older cluster munitions rather than spending the money to keep them in service; as long as we maintain a reasonably adequate means to defend ourselves without having to resort to narrowing our options to nuclear.

I still think there might be some cases where we might need some smart and dumb cluster munitions.

It may not surprise you that I disagree with most of the arguments you make, especially when you employ terms like "Fascist Liberals" - to which I could retort by carping about "Fascist Neocons." If there is anything clear in these kinds of arguments, which are OT at any rate in a forum like this, it is that we are unlikely to reap any benefit from having them beyond our own self-satisfaction and that of our respective choirs. Suffice it to say that the ultimate arbiter to these and a plethora of other arguments will be the American people, and the upcoming election, as was that of 2006, will be a referendum on past policies and future options that will decide what path this country ultimately will take in the near future. But you and I are speaking two different languages and come from such disparate cultural and intellectual backgrounds that any further conversation on this matter is likely only to at best annoy us and, at worst, drive us further into our respective corners.

Regarding the use of cluster munitions, you will have undoubtedly noted that the operative terms in my statement that you quote above are "old" and "high dud rate". I am well aware that the U.S. has developed cluster bombs that are not "old" and whose dud rate has been minimized. This is why I did not state that all cluster bombs should be banned. I recognize that they are still tactically usefull and indeed necessary for any number of battlefield contingencies. But just as we have made our "dumb" bombs smarter in order to, at least in part, minimize civilian casualties, we should be - and are - making strides toward lessening the likelihood that cluster munitions might injure, maim or kill civilians or even our own troops. Remember that military force, in the end, is merely another political instrument, alongside diplomatic and economic "force." If in the pursuit of achieving military objectives you subvert the overarching political purpuse of military intervention, then you will have obviated the very purpose of using military force in the first place. In other words, plain and simple, and whether we like it or not, civilian casualties are bad politics, and currently, in Iraq, for instance, the purpose of our presence there is political in principle, with its military dimension merely an enabler to that greater strategic purpose. Regardless of whether you and I agree on whether it was wise to go into Iraq or stay there now, we can at least agree to that simple fact.

Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 Posts: 439

Obamanite: I don’t think you understand my usage of the word fascist. I have started using the word a lot since fascist liberals have been quick to use the word and use it very frequently to try to brand conservatives. I use the word to help point out that fascists are predominately liberal. Sure there are fascist from all sides.

I’m not labeling all liberals fascists. If someone was to refer to Islamic extremists, would you assume that they meant all Islamic’s are extremists? I’m starting not to like the phrase “Islamic extremist” because I don’t think all it extremists are necessarily bad. Jesus was an extremist, and I don’t think he necessarily was bad. So therefore I’m starting to use the word fascist to describe subgroups with bigoted or other evil methodology and intent that is similar to fascists. If I say I fly airplanes, does that mean I fly all airplanes? Of course not.

I suggest reading a book called “liberal fascism“ By Jonan Goldberg.

Not all fascism is the old-fashioned stereotype of fascism. Remember that fascism went through a metamorphosis as it gained power. They stood for change, and used politically correct topics to grab popularity and power, they’ve also fed off peoples fears and prejudice to gain more power. It was very popular and politically correct at the time. I think there is a very similar phenomena going on today.

In the old days the Nazis wore brown shirts, nowadays many of the fascist wear pink and some wear green ( such as code pink and the environmental/global warming movement)

Remember that in the beginning the fascist promoted a socialistic agenda. The social agenda that the fascist delivered was not as beautiful (and politically correct) as it sounded. Government employment; more closely resembled forced labor. Reeducation camps; would be better described as death camps.

Liberal Fascism (part one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4YNLC3h8yI

It may surprise you, but I actually do call Republicans and conservatives fascists sometimes. Even though George Bush has a Republican label, I consider him a fascist liberal for subscribing to the global warming agenda. Not everyone is totally black or white, most people are a complex mix.

I consider Jesus to be an extremist, I also consider him a liberal, however I do not consider him a fascist. I would consider Jesus to be something like a liberal conservative. It might surprise you, but I do have friends that are liberals; though I will not be friends with anyone I consider as fascist, whatever their political affiliation.

As far as your position on cluster munitions it was rather vague and as if you are trying to label all cluster munitions to be baD.

"Kool-Aid" is the accepted vernacular
The only people who accept it are those who drank the Flavor-Aid.

Check yourself before you start calling out other folks.
It's pretty well-known that this reference is to the Jonestown massacre. Try googling "Drink the KoolAid". If you believe that ADS has some alternate definition, then you probably believe that "check your six" means "make sure you got a half-dozen doughnuts -- the fat clerk sometimes takes a bite out of them."

Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 Posts: 439

Loomis wrote:

"Kool-Aid" is the accepted vernacular
The only people who accept it are those who drank the Flavor-Aid.

Check yourself before you start calling out other folks.
It's pretty well-known that this reference is to the Jonestown massacre. Try googling "Drink the KoolAid". If you believe that ADS has some alternate definition, then you probably believe that "check your six" means "make sure you got a half-dozen doughnuts -- the fat clerk sometimes takes a bite out of them."

I disagree, the derogatory expression Kool-Aid drinker was first a reference to fascist liberals, subversives, drug addicts, bums, hippies (often with the delusional, conspiracy nut, idealistic, or and socialist view of the world) that had a politically correct cultist position. The term was first made popular, with a psychedelically painted school bus that crossed the country doing “acid tests” promoting LSD, and cult hippie philosophy.

Tom Wolfe wrote a book called “The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test” that gave somewhat of a misleading favorable account of Ken Kesey, and his Merry pranksters, trip across the country in 1964, using and promoting the use of LSD.

At the time they didn’t know any better, they were largely happy and pleasant but freeloading people with idealistic and socialistic notions. I don’t think it’s ever been officially acknowledged, but there seems to be a correlation between chronic LSD use and mental illness. Chronic users have a tendency to develop paranoia, delusions, and sometimes become violent and are often not very productive in society if not destructive. With some users these forms of mental illness become prevalent with chronic use, such as in the Charles Manson family, which by the way I consider another fascist liberal cult.

In some cases if not all; some other brand name of drink was used; however since most people don’t know what the name was or can’t remember the name; they often take the liberty of calling the drinks “Kool-Aid“; because it was the most popular and well-known of that type of drink at the time; Thusly, it‘s easy to remember and for other people to relate to; though it isn‘t technically correct.

The school bus trip “acid tests” by Ken Kesey, were in 1964; the book, “Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test” was written in 1968. The Jonestown massacre didn’t happen until 1978.

The reference to Jonestown and Heaven’s Gate may be more popular and well-known because of this younger generation, however the term was first popularized about a decade before. Particularly after Tom Wolfe wrote his book.

Please note that I am not disputing your claim of Flavor-Aid being used in Jonestown ; I'm just disputing the timeline and the popularity of the term Kool-Aid referencing cultist behavior.

You may disagree, but you'd be wrong. See <a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drink+the+kool-aid">this</a>. Wikipedia mentions Tom Wolfe and the Merry Pranksters, but <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid#.22Drinking_the_Kool-Aid.22">discounts the book</a> as the source of the term. In the latter use, drinking the Kool-Aid meant accepting the LSD culture (which was legal at the time); it did not mean blindly following the herd.

Elite Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1082 Status: Offline

Man I have learned more about Kool-Aid than I ever wanted to know.

Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 Posts: 439

Loomis wrote:

You may disagree, but you'd be wrong. See <a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drink+the+kool-aid">this</a>. Wikipedia mentions Tom Wolfe and the Merry Pranksters, but <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid#.22Drinking_the_Kool-Aid.22">discounts the book</a> as the source of the term. In the latter use, drinking the Kool-Aid meant accepting the LSD culture (which was legal at the time); it did not mean blindly following the herd.

I’m not wrong. You seem to misinterpret/twist what I say.

Analogy: So if there's not a law against jumping off a bridge; you don't think it would be blindly following the herd to follow people jumping off the bridge?

As much as I like Wikipedia it is only a basic reference made by users and is only as accurate and is detailed as users make it and constraints allow. So I suppose your knowledge of aviation is limited to Wikipedia, and you find Wikipedia totally unabridged and accurate? I think Wikipedia is very good, but so is the Bible, yet I considered neither to be unabridged or totally accurate.

As I said before some liberties were used in calling it Kool-Aid. As I said before the liberties for calling at Kool-Aid may lack accuracy, but helps meld together several similar occurrences and make them easily identifiable and memorable to the general population. After all; since Drink-Aid is a rather obscure brand, and that some other brands may have been used and since the brands may not be all known or have much importance to the story.

Back in the 60s and 70s the hippies themselves used to use the expression “drink the Kool-Aid” to refer to going along with the hippie crowd. It was an expression much like “tune in and drop out”, “turn on”, “be hip”, “don’t be a square” to try to pressure people to do drugs and join the hippie movement.

The first time are heard a hippie use the expression "drink the Kool-Aid" to pressure people to do drugs and joined the hippie movement; was shortly after Tom Wolfe released his book the electric Kool-Aid acid test.

I never said that the expression was directly mentioned in the book itself, however it seems the expression was originally derived from the book. (Are you not able to understand and discern the difference?)

As even Wikipedia admits and documents.

Quote:

This expression can also be used to refer to the activities of the Merry Pranksters, a group of people associated with novelist Ken Kesey

Shortly after they started showing film footage of the psychedelic painted busload of stoned hippies crossing the country touting themselves as the Merry pranksters promoting LSD by spiking Kool-Aid like powdered drinks; "Kool-Aid drinkers" started to have a derogatory meaning. They were idealistic, stoned, dirty, stinky, shallow people. In many ways they were nice, however their impact was bad and they were essentially a subversive cult that shattered many lives and families in the long run.

My family and many of my friends sometimes referred to the hippies as Kool-Aid drinkers.

AfterburnerDecalsScott wrote:

Man I have learned more about Kool-Aid than I ever wanted to know.

I have more. (I torture you with trivia)

On a side note at the risk of further digression onto a related tangent.
One of my friends is and was a pharmaceutical/food./industrial chemical engineer. He is one of the ones that used to refer to the hippies as Kool-Aid drinkers. Back as early as the 60s and 70s I remember him referring to Kool-Aid type of drinks that contain red or orange dye as “bug juice“. The bug juice reference is to Kool-Aid type of drinks that contain a red dye that is made from the cochineal insect (Dactylopius coccus). If you do some research you will find out that the dye is one of the few red dyes that is approved as a food dye by the FDA. Though it is one of the more gross sounding ones, it is one of the safest ones, if not the safest.

“Bug juice” became a popular expression because it was a fun way to gross out kids and educate them and to get them more interested into science and to make them less finicky.

So about those cluster bombs.......

I’m not wrong. You seem to misinterpret/twist what I say. 
I don't need to twist what you say -- it seems to come out pre-twisted. You can argue your version until you're blue in the face, but you'll still be wrong. Learn to deal with that fact.

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