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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1004 Status: Offline

speaking of low speed high AOA ability. . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwGkHXx8PfI

Shocked

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Newbie Joined: Jun 26, 2008 Posts: 13 Status: Offline

Obamanite wrote:

jetblast16 wrote:

Obamanite, with all due respect, the Raptor can pull a 10 G turn. Its pitch
rate due to the 2D thrust vectoring nozzles is almost unmatched. Its roll
rate is very impressive when fully cranked. This jet does this, while being
fully armed AND stealthy. I liked to see a MiG or Sukhoi do that. I am not
sure where it is lacking in maneuverability? Small differences in capability
of jets, won't make a difference in combat, what does is training, training
and more training, cunning, instincts and knowing all the capabilities of the
jet you are flying. If you are flying that slow in a 70 degree AoA in a dog
fight without being too close to your opponent, you will get blown out of the
sky due to your low energy. The Raptor can fly SLOW, but it can very quickly
accelerate either out of harms way or to get onto an opponent. If the Raptor
gets full HOB capability, it will not matter anyway, since it will be able to slug
it out with the best of them. It may be true that the Raptor does not *quite*
have some of the flipping characteristics of the latest Sukhoi's, but does it
really matter in a dog fight? Due to physics, these neat air show "tricks" have to be done at slower speeds, since G forces rapidly become too high,
first for the pilot, then for the jet. Who knows in the future, may be a
completely autonomous stealthy jet that can pull 20 Gs with manual over-
ride (remote control) will be controlled from some bunker where new recruits
eating microwave pop corn are first into battle. May be that will replace the
Raptor, since no more weakest link (human pilot)....

Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting the Raptor is anything less than a stellar performer close-in, among the best in the world. However, it is not unmatched WVR the way it is simply untouchable BVR. It's like, the Raptor is a very buff sniper operating at night with the latest 3rd Gen. NVGs against an enemy walking around in plain sight who is equipped with nothing but a knife. In the unlikely event that the sniper should find himself in hand-to-hand combat with the knife-wielding enemy, he has an advantage in that he is fit and ready for such a fight. However, the enemy still has a good shot of getting a slash or two in there. But, why would a sniper want to engage in hand-to-hand combat? Yes, the fact he is physically fit is nice to have, just in case, but a sniper who gets himself into a knife fight with an enemy did something terribly wrong to get himself in that situation. See my point?

Obamanite, you have a very good point. Thats exactly how I see it. Couldnt have said it much better.

I'm very happy to hear the positive comments about the Raptors Airshow performance!! That's Kewl...I'm sooo looking forward to seeing the Raptor Demo Team at Dobbins later this year...

I was wondering if you guys had seen this..It's pretty old so maybe all of you have?? I thought I'd post it anyhow as it's a pretty neat "perspective"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_za3KfMFKLk

sferrin wrote:

speaking of low speed high AOA ability. . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwGkHXx8PfI

Shocked

Impressive indeed, particularly the fact they played Zep's "When the Levee Breaks" and not the ususal, mid-numbing heavy-metal BS. That looks like almost 45 degrees AOA, and I believe the airspeed is around 60 knots.

navav2002 wrote:

I'm very happy to hear the positive comments about the Raptors Airshow performance!! That's Kewl...I'm sooo looking forward to seeing the Raptor Demo Team at Dobbins later this year...

I was wondering if you guys had seen this..It's pretty old so maybe all of you have?? I thought I'd post it anyhow as it's a pretty neat "perspective"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_za3KfMFKLk

Perhaps it's my imagination, but in most of those maneuvers when they go "post-stall", you can tell (or at least I can), that the MKI is no longer under complete control and it's working on pure inertia while the Raptor is still completely controlable and rock solid. At least that's the way it looks to me.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1033 Status: Offline

Yes, thats correct.

Enthusiast Joined: Dec 09, 2007 Posts: 23 Status: Offline

Asif wrote:

Anyone tell me why the F-22 needs an escort F-15 while flying over UK airspace?? The F-22 that went to Farnborough to qualify its display had its six covered!..

I believe this was for safety in case the F-22s transponder mailfunctioned. They split as soon as the F-22 is within visual (VFR) of the tower, although at Fairford they did a nice flyby for everyone at the grandstand. Funny to see all the cameras following the F-22 as it split with the F-15E. Cool

Regards,
Bjørnar

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1033 Status: Offline

There is a reason for it...that isn't it. You all should be able to figure it out though...

Enthusiast Joined: Dec 09, 2007 Posts: 23 Status: Offline

Obamanite wrote:

Asif wrote:

Obamanite wrote:

Shame today's show was cancelled. Hopefully tomorrow's will still take place. If not, there's always Farnborough.

Sunday has now been called off.. Total wash out Crying or Very sad

http://www.airtattoo.com/airtattoo/News ... LED_SUNDAY

Just saw that. What a terrible disappointment. I'm very, very sorry Sad

Absolutely a huge dissapointment. I spoke to people from as far way as Japan, Bermuda and the continental US who've come over for the show. I feel terrible for everyone involved, though I agree cancellation was the right thing to do.

I was fortunate to catch the friday rehersal display, amidst rain showers, thunder and lightning (literally just a few minutes before the F-22 flew).

Regards,
Bjørnar
Oslo

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1004 Status: Offline

Obamanite wrote:

sferrin wrote:

speaking of low speed high AOA ability. . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwGkHXx8PfI

Shocked

Impressive indeed, particularly the fact they played Zep's "When the Levee Breaks" and not the ususal, mid-numbing heavy-metal BS. That looks like almost 45 degrees AOA, and I believe the airspeed is around 60 knots.

Was trying to figure out what that music was. Sounded familiar but I was thinking Aerosmith as they have some stuff like that. There's another clip from that airshow where the F-22 does the back flip followed buy the flat 360 to AC/DC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY3oGTBGw_A

Wish the poster would put the whole airshow up. Sounds WAY better than the guy they usually have running his mouth off at other performances (who sounds like they snagged him off the pod-racing scene in Phantom Menace).

Man I'd love to see an F-16XL with GE-132, 2-D vectoring and CVV doing High AoA and J-turns and stuff Wink

geogen wrote:

Man I'd love to see an F-16XL with GE-132, 2-D vectoring and CVV doing High AoA and J-turns and stuff Wink

The Cranked Arrow wing is unlikely to make the F-16 superagile, if anything it may make it less so at extreme AoAs. The main reason for the cranked delta was to increase internal fuel capacity by over 60% and also provide better cruise efficiency by having a relatively small mach angle for a corresponding lifting area. The delta is considerably less agile a planform, the cranking introduces a higher vortex lift component to help mitigate that.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1004 Status: Offline

dwightlooi wrote:

geogen wrote:

Man I'd love to see an F-16XL with GE-132, 2-D vectoring and CVV doing High AoA and J-turns and stuff Wink

The Cranked Arrow wing is unlikely to make the F-16 superagile, if anything it may make it less so at extreme AoAs. The main reason for the cranked delta was to increase internal fuel capacity by over 60% and also provide better cruise efficiency by having a relatively small mach angle for a corresponding lifting area. The delta is considerably less agile a planform, the cranking introduces a higher vortex lift component to help mitigate that.

Not so. I posted some graphs around here somewhere as I recall from an AIAA paper.. XL had VERY good high AOA performance.

Here ya go:

dwightlooi wrote:

geogen wrote:

Man I'd love to see an F-16XL with GE-132, 2-D vectoring and CVV doing High AoA and J-turns and stuff Wink

The Cranked Arrow wing is unlikely to make the F-16 superagile, if anything it may make it less so at extreme AoAs. The main reason for the cranked delta was to increase internal fuel capacity by over 60% and also provide better cruise efficiency by having a relatively small mach angle for a corresponding lifting area. The delta is considerably less agile a planform, the cranking introduces a higher vortex lift component to help mitigate that.

I'd have to concur that the cranked-arrow mod alone would not likely make the F-16 super-agile, fair enough.

I'm not a technical expert in this field, but perhaps the suggested addition of GE-132 power, 2D vectoring and and CCV, could make a pretty sweet flying platform including much better maneuvering control at lower speeds and High AoA compared to original F-16XL. That's all.

However, my post was merely for suggested fun and sensationalism, granted such a configured plane will never be flown Sad

Enthusiast Joined: Dec 09, 2007 Posts: 23 Status: Offline

checksixx wrote:

There is a reason for it...that isn't it. You all should be able to figure it out though...

Feel free to elaborate.

Regards,
Bjørnar

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