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Document title: F-35 offers multirole surprises - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
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Printed on: 07 October 2008

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F-35 offers multirole surprises



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Obamanite
PostPosted: Jun 20, 2008 - 03:44 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Newly posted by Aviation Week:

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The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) will “redefine the concept of multirole strike” aircraft, Lockheed Martin officials say, but they offer few details to flesh out that claim.

Still, while the future concept of operations, electronic attack (EA) capability and derivative options remain undefined, at least publicly, some capabilities can be picked out of their purposely vague descriptions.

Starting from the notion that new hardware is the least likely addition to the aircraft and that it has an open architecture for avionics, look for the big multirole capability additions to involve electronic attack.

Because of the ability to penetrate while using low-probability-of-intercept radar and passive sensors, the JSF will not operate in proximity to current, so-called fourth-generation aircraft. It will instead roam well-defended enemy airspace while feeding precision targeting data to nonstealthy aircraft with standoff-range weapons.

Tailored for EA

The F-35 aircraft is being designed to deliver electronic attack (jamming, spoofing and pulses of energy) with the same ease that it can deliver explosive weapons. Moreover, Lockheed officials say the F-35 – first of all a combat aircraft – will have full 360-degree awareness of what is going on around it.

That presents an interesting dilemma for EA versus kinetic weaponry. The new AIM-9X air-to-air missile can perform high off-boresight shots without turning the aircraft’s nose toward the target. However, delivering electronic effects require specialized antennae pointed toward the target. As far as is known, JSF has only its advanced active, electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar antenna in the nose to pump out its electronic firepower. It would then have the weakness of any AESA array in that it is flat with a field of view of less than 180 degrees, perhaps an effective field of regard for effective attack of 60-90 degrees.

Some radar specialists and Air Force planners already say they anticipate flying the F-35s in line, with the first aircraft being passive and the second emitting and passing target information to the first so that it can remain undetected. Therefore, it appears that without an add-on antenna, the JSF’s EA capability will be limited to the forward quarter.

However, within that field the electronic effects generator can be routed through the AESA radar, which allows the F-35 to invade, blind or fool enemy sensors and radars at ranges of up to hundreds of miles.

Sensors

Lockheed officials do admit that the F-35’s sensor capabilities include advanced electronic surveillance allowing development of an instantaneous electronic order of battle – what’s emitting and from where.

Along with EA, the JSF will take on the mission of intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. So instead of depending on a few specialized high-demand aircraft like Rivet Joint (for signals intelligence), Cobra Ball (measurement and signature intelligence) or Compass Call (EA) that can’t venture into enemy airspace, a fleet of F-35s will be able to conduct those missions deep into enemy territory to take advantage of physics (by being nearer the targets) while deepening the areas of surveillance.

They won’t say if information warfare is part of the package. Info warfare is generally the bailiwick of Commando Solo and Compass Call (including network penetration and attack), but with software upgrades radar specialists expect the capability to appear soon.


Rarely have I come across a program of this magnitude with as many detractors as the F-35, and I have been closely following the defense industry since the early days of the F-16 program. However, this is likely explained by the fact that back then, there wasn't such a thing as the Internet that gave everyone and their uninformed grandmother a forum to air their comments and concerns. It's interesting that the F-35's detractors engage in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't, two-pronged attack: on the one hand, it is far too ambitious a program from the point of view of its synthesis of cutting-edge sensors and electronics, as well as the three-in-one, shades of F-111 disaster, jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none concept; on the other, it is alleged to be a mediocre performer aerodynamically, too conservative in its approach to raw performance, expected to "merely" equal the F-16's performance characteristics. It seems to me that what its critics are missing is the fact that, well, this is a 21st century platform that is being judged by late-20th century standards. In some ways, the F-22 is the ultimate late-20th century fighter, equipped, as it is, to win WVR engagements if it absolutely has to. However, it seems to me that the F-35's entire concept is to fight smart rather than to fight rough, taking advantage of emerging technologies in some ways far in advance of what was available to the Raptor's designers back in the late 1980s and early 90s. I think the article above does a magnificent job of giving us a sneak peak of why the F-35, if successful, stands to be a game-changer beyond most outsider observers' capacity to imagine, just as the F-16 established the stardard by which all 4th Gen fighters were measured and, indeed, designed.
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LMAggie
PostPosted: Jun 20, 2008 - 03:42 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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AvLeak should stick to journalism. lol But yes, this is good insight.

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ACMIguy
PostPosted: Jun 20, 2008 - 04:24 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Aviation Week has missed the boat this time. Many incorrect statements and misconceptions are put forth in this one.
I agree with LMAggie, if you can’t do the research first, then don't write the paper. Maybe they should stick to Airbus stories.
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geogen
PostPosted: Jun 20, 2008 - 06:31 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Good read. Absolutely, when the potential of F-35's future systems integration is realized, if successful, the platform will stand to be a significant 'game-changer' beyond most current comprehension.

Few would disagree.

The future of air combat operations will be deadly insane for sure. More deterrence per a/c weight than perhaps ever before.

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Obamanite
PostPosted: Jun 20, 2008 - 06:36 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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LMAggie, since I know you're an engineer with LM I recognize you can't be specific but, are you at liberty to say whether this article is more or less accurate or more or less BS? AMIguy, seems like LMAggie credited the article with "good insight" (which I suppose answers my question, unless LMAggie was referring to what I wrote). You, however, state that AvWeek has "missed the boat" and that the article is full of "incorrect statements and misconceptions." Are you involved with the F-35 program in any way, or is that just your informed/uninformed take on it from an observer's point of view? If you're "in the know" then I won't argue with you. However, if that's just your opinion, then maybe there is some room for discussion here. From my very ignorant perspective (that is, not being in a "need to know" basis with the program), there is nothing in this article that seems outrageously fantastical and/or inaccurate. Speculative, yes, but then again, that's what most of us do on these boards, speculate away...
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LMAggie
PostPosted: Jun 20, 2008 - 06:58 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Obamanite wrote:
LMAggie, since I know you're an engineer with LM I recognize you can't be specific but, are you at liberty to say whether this article is more or less accurate or more or less BS? AMIguy, seems like LMAggie credited the article with "good insight" (which I suppose answers my question, unless LMAggie was referring to what I wrote). You, however, state that AvWeek has "missed the boat" and that the article is full of "incorrect statements and misconceptions." Are you involved with the F-35 program in any way, or is that just your informed/uninformed take on it from an observer's point of view? If you're "in the know" then I won't argue with you. However, if that's just your opinion, then maybe there is some room for discussion here. From my very ignorant perspective (that is, not being in a "need to know" basis with the program), there is nothing in this article that seems outrageously fantastical and/or inaccurate. Speculative, yes, but then again, that's what most of us do on these boards, speculate away...


I dont know much about our EW capabilities (different line of work), but ya they were just making up stuff. lol But the intention was good, the F-35 will set the bar much higher as far as EW integration goes. I think the writer was hoping for a little more help from LM when he wrote it, but that didn't happen.

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geogen
PostPosted: Jun 21, 2008 - 04:17 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Obamanite, I'm glad to see you appreciate good speculation and good ignorance on the F-35 discussions Smile Hey, yours is no better than mine, eh!

Given my uninformed ignorance to work with, cough, I'd still agree though, with most of the article's comments and speculations in a general framework.

Perhaps some inaccuracies could be that the said, yet undeveloped EW tech is a ways off perhaps and far from being integrated successfully and not to mention, ordered by Congress... Thus, as with popular mechanics type reporting, it truly can't be reported as a truism yet (or counted as hatched yet).

Also, the tactics (e.g., 'inline' flying, etc) as reported therein, can only be assumed as pure heresay and speculative.

So much in regards to tactics, fully integrated systems and true overall capabilities (among other things) can and probably will be different to some degree, by say 2016 as is publicly speculated on today. IMHO.

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LowObservable
PostPosted: Jun 23, 2008 - 10:23 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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"Rarely have I come across a program of this magnitude with as many detractors as the F-35"

You forgot the B-2, for one.

"However, this is likely explained by the fact that back then, there wasn't such a thing as the Internet that gave everyone and their uninformed grandmother a forum to air their comments and concerns."

Actually, no. There was always 60 Minutes. And the Internet has also provided gutless weasels with the ability to engage in ad hominem attacks in support of the JSF, while hiding under their pseudonym blankies.

"It's interesting that the F-35's detractors engage in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't, two-pronged attack: on the one hand, it is far too ambitious a program from the point of view of its synthesis of cutting-edge sensors and electronics, as well as the three-in-one, shades of F-111 disaster, jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none concept."

Since the three-in-one concept was at the root of the 2004 weight crisis and the current engine problems, and the major export customer continues to describe the STOVL capability as "at risk", I think that is an accurate observation. Wrapping a single airframe around stealth, STOVL and CV has incurred immense cost and risk.

"On the other, it is alleged to be a mediocre performer aerodynamically, too conservative in its approach to raw performance, expected to "merely" equal the F-16's performance characteristics."

Again, take out the "merely" and you have the plain truth.


"It seems to me that what its critics are missing is the fact that, well, this is a 21st century platform that is being judged by late-20th century standards. In some ways, the F-22 is the ultimate late-20th century fighter, equipped, as it is, to win WVR engagements if it absolutely has to. However, it seems to me that the F-35's entire concept is to fight smart rather than to fight rough, taking advantage of emerging technologies in some ways far in advance of what was available to the Raptor's designers back in the late 1980s and early 90s."

It had better do so, but that has not been proven.

"I think the article above does a magnificent job of giving us a sneak peak of why the F-35, if successful, stands to be a game-changer beyond most outsider observers' capacity to imagine."

The problem here is the assumption that those who are not insiders cannot understand the aircraft. If it was correct, then all debate would be pointless; actually, however, it is not correct.
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sferrin
PostPosted: Jun 23, 2008 - 10:40 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Makes you wonder what the debates would have been like had there been an internet during the early days of the Blackbird and the TFX. Twisted Evil (I imagine you could take 95% of the F-22 threads here and insert "F-15" in it's place and just about cover what Eagle threads would have been like. Laughing )
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LowObservable
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It would have been healthy to have that debate earlier in the JSF program and it would have been good to debate the programs you mentioned. The SR, for all its excellence, had a catastrophic safety record - finally improved at the cost of very cumbersome operations - and while the F-111 finally matured into a useful airplane for the USAF and RAAF, the joint-service aspect of the project was a near-complete waste of money.

It was clear, early in the JSF process, that the Pentagon should look at "Airbus-type" commonality - that is, similar engine cores, LO systems, production techniques, cockpits and avionics in mission-tailored airframes. (Which is basically where we are ending up, but at a horrible cost.) But nobody would dare to look at that option, because (as we can see here) politically oriented people insisted on a common airframe.
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Obamanite
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LowObservable wrote:
It would have been healthy to have that debate earlier in the JSF program and it would have been good to debate the programs you mentioned. The SR, for all its excellence, had a catastrophic safety record - finally improved at the cost of very cumbersome operations - and while the F-111 finally matured into a useful airplane for the USAF and RAAF, the joint-service aspect of the project was a near-complete waste of money.

It was clear, early in the JSF process, that the Pentagon should look at "Airbus-type" commonality - that is, similar engine cores, LO systems, production techniques, cockpits and avionics in mission-tailored airframes. (Which is basically where we are ending up, but at a horrible cost.) But nobody would dare to look at that option, because (as we can see here) politically oriented people insisted on a common airframe.


You are implying that somehow the program has already essentially failed. While I concede that it has yet to prove itself, the reverse is also true: its detractors have yet to prove that the program will fail at meeting its stated goals. And I'm not at all certain that this program will, in fact, fail...
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LMAggie
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LowObservable wrote:


...but at a horrible cost...



And what would that be?

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geogen
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Obamanite wrote:
LowObservable wrote:
It would have been healthy to have that debate earlier in the JSF program and it would have been good to debate the programs you mentioned. The SR, for all its excellence, had a catastrophic safety record - finally improved at the cost of very cumbersome operations - and while the F-111 finally matured into a useful airplane for the USAF and RAAF, the joint-service aspect of the project was a near-complete waste of money.

It was clear, early in the JSF process, that the Pentagon should look at "Airbus-type" commonality - that is, similar engine cores, LO systems, production techniques, cockpits and avionics in mission-tailored airframes. (Which is basically where we are ending up, but at a horrible cost.) But nobody would dare to look at that option, because (as we can see here) politically oriented people insisted on a common airframe.


You are implying that somehow the program has already essentially failed. While I concede that it has yet to prove itself, the reverse is also true: its detractors have yet to prove that the program will fail at meeting its stated goals. And I'm not at all certain that this program will, in fact, fail...


Ob,

Missing a main point of many of the detractors...

Skeptics, critics and pessimists are mainly just trying to calm-down (and bring back down to Earth) the flamboyant 'assumed' holier than thou expectations of the 'F-35' preachers. That includes expecting 2,500 US (and 4,000 world wide) purchased units and being air-superior to 2040, etc.

Many variables will factor in the program's year to year reality, other than marketing and the F-35 faith.

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DarthAmerica
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geogen wrote:
That includes expecting 2,500 US (and 4,000 world wide) purchased units and being air-superior to 2040, etc.

Many variables will factor in the program's year to year reality, other than marketing and the F-35 faith.



It's not faith, it's hard data. The F-35 is replacing many different types of platforms in multiple airforces. Why It has no direct equivalent or even near competitor. Why would it not sell in those numbers? Add to that it is cheaper than all its competition and remember what you buy when you buy an F-35. A security relationship with the United States. The F-16 has managed quite an impressive amount of sales for these very reasons. Nations are still seeking out F-16 sales today!

In terms of air superior, I really don't know what you mean but if you are talking about in a direct platform comparison I'd say it's a waste of time since platforms don't fight in isolation. However, what nation is even testing an aircraft that does anything near what an F-35 does? It takes a long time to develop advanced combat aircraft. If some other advanced nation started working on it today, it could be 2020 before it was even ready for first flight and 2025-2030 timeframe until IOC. The F-35 of the 2030's would not be the F-35 of the 2010's. It would evolve as the F-16 and F/A-18 have. So by no means is it unreasonable to think that an F-35 variant would not be very capable and even more capable that most threats even out to the 2030's. You have to look at this from a systems point of view.

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vertical
PostPosted: Jun 25, 2008 - 05:59 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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DarthAmerica wrote:
geogen wrote:
That includes expecting 2,500 US (and 4,000 world wide) purchased units and being air-superior to 2040, etc.

Many variables will factor in the program's year to year reality, other than marketing and the F-35 faith.



It's not faith, it's hard data. The F-35 is replacing many different types of platforms in multiple airforces. Why It has no direct equivalent or even near competitor. Why would it not sell in those numbers?

Put quite simply, because things aren't the same as they were 20 some years ago.

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