Forum: Careers & Assignments

I still don't think anybody should fly in a fighter unless the folks that take care of them have done so first.

You don't work our hours, under our conditions, weekends, exercises, all types of outdoor weather and hazardous conditions. Your in an air conditioned office, set hours (or flexible) for lunch or whatever other reason you can come with for time off.

We are stuck (way under manned too) to our aircraft, all types of jobs being done, yes it is our job, your right about that, but it is also our sweat, not yours that gets those jets flying, if you want what we have so bad - cross train into it.
You crunch numbers....big damn deal, any high school kid can do that, we crunch knuckles...big difference buddy (even if you are wearing the patch, you will never be aircraft maintenance unless you cross train, be happy with your very lucky assignment).

If you wanted a chance at a ride, work in our environment, then change jobs. I too remember the many, many times over my career, my pay was screwed up often by some clown in finance, then I would go to finance and many of you were on break or took off that day, then there was shutting down finance for training, so much for supporting the war fighter then, don't consider breaking up the training so you could still take care of your customers, no, that made too much sense and I waited for hours sometimes to be taken care of (I never forgot that crap either). My guys tolerated all that , maybe still do, so please, you don't have it rough. Your tear jerking story elsewhere, it is not breaking any ice with me, you got a cushion job and you damn well know it.

Maintenance folks work their asses off daily, seven days a week...the reasons why you should not ride first (before them) are as long as my arm.

Tell your story at the club with other maintenance types, see where it gets ya. WE are the real deal, your support is required and we thank you for it, but "if" you get a ride, it will be after my folks or any other maintenance type rides first...that my man comes with the job.

I am sure you can fix any pay problem..good, that is your job...maybe you should change careers and get out more often if you want into my world..it is hard work, very little time off, no weekends off you can count on either...then, after years at being very, very good at your job, you might earn a shot well after many others have flown first...that my man is life...take it or leave it.

As a Thunderbird now, your lucky to be there, enjoy the moment, you might get your ride there but I still would make you wait until all maintainers rode first, that is only fair, that is maintenance taking care of maintenance. Go back into your world of Public Relation events while the maintenance folks turn the aircraft, that is what the USAF is about, everything else...is support functions and we thank you for it.

The "Team" will take care of you but outside that, your on your own like my maintenance folks were, still are, you get no special consideration in my book...awards or not, that is doing your job right the first time. Enjoy the moment...while it last. Then go back to crunching numbers while maintenance works very long hours, in all locations, separated from family maintaining aircraft while you type in numbers into a computer...your experience is not even close to being on the same level as my (and now) maintenance types....it is my story and I am sticking to it, that is my high horse, your last (or should be) on the list to possible get a ride...or change jobs and really work for a living!

I did not see a finance guy next to me on the flightline in Vietnam or Bosnia when we were at war, you guys were back in a nice comfortable, protected office so your story cuts no ice with me. Finance, what a joke, do your job, maintenance we do theirs and get any little perk they can since they don't sit in AC, have lunch, or have weekends off...that is their world so let them get what they can, they earned it, you earned a day off, be happy with that, we normally don't get that either.

I don't care who you are then or now, if your not maintenance, your not maintenance so stay out of our world, if I need a check fixed...I'll call ya and see if you can "fix' that. That is my high horse and I earned it in spades dude..Patch or not!

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Meathook wrote:

I still don't think anybody should fly in a fighter unless the folks that take care of them have done so first.

You don't work our hours, under our conditions, weekends, exercises, all types of outdoor weather and hazardous conditions. Your in an air conditioned office, set hours (or flexible) for lunch or whatever other reason you can come with for time off.

We are stuck (way under manned too) to our aircraft, all types of jobs being done, yes it is our job, your right about that, but it is also our sweat, not yours that gets those jets flying, if you want what we have so bad - cross train into it.
You crunch [Link pending approval] damn deal, any high school kid can do that, we crunch [Link pending approval] difference buddy (even if you are wearing the patch, you will never be aircraft maintenance unless you cross train, be happy with your very lucky assignment).

If you wanted a chance at a ride, work in our environment, then change jobs. I too remember the many, many times over my career, my pay was screwed up often by some clown in finance, then I would go to finance and many of you were on break or took off that day, then there was shutting down finance for training, so much for supporting the war fighter then, don't consider breaking up the training so you could still take care of your customers, no, that made too much sense and I waited for hours sometimes to be taken care of (I never forgot that crap either). My guys tolerated all that , maybe still do, so please, you don't have it rough. Your tear jerking story elsewhere, it is not breaking any ice with me, you got a cushion job and you damn well know it.

Maintenance folks work their asses off daily, seven days a [Link pending approval] reasons why you should not ride first (before them) are as long as my arm.

Tell your story at the club with other maintenance types, see where it gets ya. WE are the real deal, your support is required and we thank you for it, but "if" you get a ride, it will be after my folks or any other maintenance type rides [Link pending approval] my man comes with the job.

I am sure you can fix any pay [Link pending approval], that is your [Link pending approval] you should change careers and get out more often if you want into my [Link pending approval] is hard work, very little time off, no weekends off you can count on [Link pending approval], after years at being very, very good at your job, you might earn a shot well after many others have flown [Link pending approval] my man is [Link pending approval] it or leave it.

As a Thunderbird now, your lucky to be there, enjoy the moment, you might get your ride there but I still would make you wait until all maintainers rode first, that is only fair, that is maintenance taking care of maintenance. Go back into your world of Public Relation events while the maintenance folks turn the aircraft, that is what the USAF is about, everything [Link pending approval] support functions and we thank you for it.

The "Team" will take care of you but outside that, your on your own like my maintenance folks were, still are, you get no special consideration in my [Link pending approval] or not, that is doing your job right the first time. Enjoy the [Link pending approval] it last. Then go back to crunching numbers while maintenance works very long hours, in all locations, separated from family maintaining aircraft while you type in numbers into a [Link pending approval] experience is not even close to being on the same level as my (and now) maintenance [Link pending approval] is my story and I am sticking to it, that is my high horse, your last (or should be) on the list to possible get a [Link pending approval] change jobs and really work for a living!

I did not see a finance guy next to me on the flightline in Vietnam or Bosnia when we were at war, you guys were back in a nice comfortable, protected office so your story cuts no ice with me. Finance, what a joke, do your job, maintenance we do theirs and get any little perk they can since they don't sit in AC, have lunch, or have weekends [Link pending approval] is their world so let them get what they can, they earned it, you earned a day off, be happy with that, we normally don't get that either.

I don't care who you are then or now, if your not maintenance, your not maintenance so stay out of our world, if I need a check [Link pending approval]'ll call ya and see if you can "fix' that. That is my high horse and I earned it in spades [Link pending approval] or not!

As a member of the USAF who's been to Baghdad, Bosnia, and all the places in between, you are very off base if you opinion of anyone who doesn't turn a wrench. If you think I hung back in an office while I was out at all those places, working an 8 hour day no matter what, you have a seriously warped frame of reference slick.

I sure wish I could find this cushy a$$ job you seem to think I have, cause I haven't seen it. I mean, since I joined the USAF I have never worked a weekend, missed a lunch, had a long stretch of 12 hour days, sucked rubber in the ROK, been shot at, etc. Rolling Eyes

Did I mention my career field is manned at 250%??? I mean, none of the other career fields have had to deal with manning drawdowns or [Link pending approval] those poor maintainers.

I'm glad the maintainers are the only ones working in the USAF. Next time I roll in the gate at 10pm, I'll be sure to ask why that A1C is sitting at the gaurdshack, cause according to you he isn't really working since he isn't a maintainer.

For what it's worth, many of the maintainers I have worked with and known in the past don't seem to share your attitude. The ones on the team certainly don't. It's a damn good thing there's a "retired" after your name, because you're little game of "us and them" is a bunch of BS and you'd be lost in the USAF of today.

And, just for your benefit, I'll make my claim graphically (since you seem to be sterotyping the non-maintainers, I'll stick to the sterotype that every maintainer is a mouthbreathing dolt and draw you a picture)

Reality

Meathook's view of the USAF.

Get it?

Big TWO on what Meathook said! Seeing the hours and the Bravo Sierra that my pops put up with was the very reason that I chose not to be a maintainer.

Finance? MPF? YGBFSM! Yeah, if you can get those Mike Foxtrots to get off of their Alphas and actually do some work, then I might agree with that argument up above. Everytime the "computer goes down" (yeah, how many times have we heard that sorry Foxtrottin' excuse? Rolling Eyes

) they get to close up and go home. If there are still planes up, Operations is still at work.

It's much harder to maintain a $30+ mil aircraft than it is to click a mouse on MS Excel. 95 degrees with 90% humidity at Kadena, MacDill, Homestead, Eglin, or Tyndall? 110 degrees, with no wind at Luke or Nellis? Sub-Zero at Kunsan, Keflavic, Minot, or Grand Forks? Maintenance can name that tune in two notes. MPF? Well, the temp is hard to tell, because that thermostat can get a little tricky... Rolling Eyes

When every Crew Dog gets a ride in his jet (yes, it's HIS jet) then, and ONLY THEN should the support toads MAYBE get a ride. You REMFs out there tracking?

Of course, it should be LS that gets rides after Maintenance! Wink

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.

Meathook hit it right on the nose. Ya all maintainers don't walk around saying these things out loud because they don't have to. I was stationed at luke for 3 years, I've been through the monsoons, the 120 degree weather while wearing a bunny suit and jumpin tubes all day, i should have brought a thermometer inside the tubes damn they got hot!! Here's a good way to get an idea of why maintainers feel they deserve a ride before non maintainers do.

Example: You are a civilian and have an office job doing whatever. One day your car breaks and you pull the motor out and replace it. then all the tires are worn out and the brakes are bad so you replace those too. It ends up taking a week to get it back together so you have to take your wife's car to work, (the spare). Now your all done and so proud of yourself for getting all that hard work done. Are you going to go the the guy in your office that doesn't even work in your department and let him drive your car first? OVER MY DEAD BODY!!!!

You want a ride, change jobs. If i want to hold an m-16 and protect the base I'll change jobs, but i wont go over to the guard shack and grab a gun and be a cop for a day. I take my hat off to anyone serving in the armed forces, even finance, but you need to be realistic and recognize what it is we do and appreciate that you don't have to. I LOVE MY JOB!! Thank you for serving

Maintainers work really hard, and they should definitely be the first in line to get rides, and when every one of them has cycled through, they should all get one again.... Despite the obvious (finance/mpf/most other support agencies have no idea what real work is), it does so much for the morale of the mx troops. Sure a backseat ride would impress a finance troop, but is he going to take more pride in his work, my guess is no, he's still going to go home at 4:15 every day regardless of who needs help. However, with mx, those guys already take pride in their work, but when they actually get to see the fruits of their constant labor, you can tell it makes a difference. It improves relations between mx and ops as well. Flight docs, life support, intel, squadron ops, and mx, (IE the only people with a direct hand in everyday ops) those are the only ones who should get rides...everybody else should just keep looking up and wonder what its like...

Casshan, you do your job supporting the Air Force collectively, I'll thank you for it when my pay (or that of the troops now)was never screwed up or your a$$ was turning a wrench with me (or any of these folks) as outlined by many others in this forum.

You don't come into my backyard and tell me you want to play when you have never been there before or will visit again, it is not done.

Thank you boys and girls (fellow maintainers), the reality mentioned above by you is the true reality I know it, now a few others know it) too.

Those outside of the fence just have no damn clue what maintenance is about and why they (outsiders) are Not or should not be placed before any maintainer for a ride...it just should not be done! You all help make the real case with me, we know it, now they know it.

I hope they don't get a paper cut while crying in their tissue over it. Finance, MPF, folks like that, thanks for that little support when your open, the flightline Never closes...we give support 24/7 and that is reality!

If I was in the USAF today, I would convince my commander to fly you support puppies in a C-5, C-17 or some sh*t like that before I would give up a seat in a fighter, someone who does this work for a living (what a chance at a ride, cross train).

You guys can cry until your blue in the face, I could care less but when the rubber hits the road, that road is the flightline...not an office.

Please, now do your job and "we" will do ours and hope to taste the fruits of "our labor", you can keep your computer, clean office, nice work hours and clean clothes, I'll take the ramp any-day over that!

Such is life.....get over it or just shut up and do YOUR job, while we do ours. Damn cry babies, I never liked that crap, you cant have what I had or those have now...it is not in the cards but hey - thanks for the support all those years,

I must have spend (collectively) a year fighting folks screwing up my pay while guys like you just took your time trying to fix what you screwed up to begin with...no joy here. It is not us against them....there is us..simple really. Thanks for wanting a piece of what we do, but no thank you, stay on the other side and watch, glad you like it.

yea...but we do make it happen (with pilots of course) Smile

Have a nice day

Casshan....sorry, I was hoping I could see if your drawing skills were any better then your flawed logic about you deserving a ride in any fighter before maintenance folks.

I never said you don't deserve a ride (if you were very lucky, just not before any maintainer, that is their job, so they go first, simple math for me).

Just because you got lucky to be on the team that does represent the USAF does not mean you get to deserve a ride in a fighter before those folks that work on them, no way dude!

You got your gold star just being selected for the team (isn't that enough for you)? Don't push your luck, that selection is your reward in its own right, anything else you get would be pure luck.

I like the Marines too and USAF PJ's, you think just because I like them, I deserve a ride in a Tank or Helo Jump with PJ's...get real will ya...you so full of nonsense.

Any real aircraft maintenance type would NEVER put your ride ahead of another maintainer...no way in hell, that is reality buddy, they worked too hard in their field well ahead of you showing up expecting a ride.

Enjoy the team, so your finance huh...do us all a favor, don't screw up their travel pay will ya like many of your partners in the field do daily.

I know the team earns its pay (having been there and made history in 1989 in aircraft maintenance), your along for the ride buddy (its a great ride too)...but it is all about Airplanes and the Force collectively, or have you forgotten it is the Air Force (aircraft mainly), everything else is a supporting role, so support it and enjoy the ride.

I was not a pilot but as close as I was working and flying in these aircraft from time to time (I was lucky) the pride I had in my work (field) then and now will never change, stick to your area of expertize or cross train, simple really (if you have what it takes).

I don't care if your a team member of not..your not maintenance, it is that simple. Don't cut in on their area, your our of your league.

You think by you helping to wax or help shine a TB jet, that gives you the right to fly in one...hell no, not until everybody physically (hands on and trained in that field) does so first. Then if there is time and room, then you get your thrill...not until then (if I had anything to say about it) and when I did, that was the pecking order I went with and it was blessed by the Commander so I guess he too was narrow minded huh.

Do what I did, walk in my shoes, then bitch about your desires, talk to me after twenty six years in maintenance globally, then maybe I will listen to your whining about who deserves a ride in a fighter first.

I hated my guys losing out to some clown on the base that never touch an aircraft or never gave up as much as they (folks working them did). To them (on base guys watching from a distance) it was something to look at, we were working, guys like you were at the club drinking, so no, you don't deserve a ride first...simple for me.

Hate me if you will but that is life...get used to it.

I don't care if you like my opinion or not...you have to earn it and not just by putting on an Air Force Uniform, many have done that and are happy to serve (many just show up and slide by too), they don't bitch because they did not get a ride like you are now.

In house first, then out house (if there is time and room)...enjoy your career, enjoy the team (that is the cream but you want more huh)...damn shame you cant see just how lucky you really are at the moment (even without a ride).

I am done talking with you about it, you will never understand since you don't do it for a living 24/7 like we did.

When your done, it is back to the office, we are never done...big difference buddy. Even retired I could run rings around you and your so called skills in finance, I am in touch with the USAF more then you could ever be, then and now. Are you crewing a jet now or are you a third wiper, helping clean up? Big difference in that job or being a real maintenance troop.

These are mainly maintainers on this site and those that love aviation, they all want rides too, is it possible...of course not so get over it and press on with pride.

Meathook - Out!

Casshan,
Long ago I came to the conclusion that everyone serving in the USAF falls into one of 2 catagories: Operators and Support. The support catagory is further divided into Direct and Indirect. The litmus test is simple--How does my job impact the mission? If you employ aircraft or weapons against enemies of the Republic you are an operator. If you touch the operator or the weapons system you are Direct Support otherwise, you are Indirect Support.

Then of course there's the "Mort Test" which goes like this...If i'm forward deployed and me and everybody else in my AFSC is killed and/or my section is destroyed...do the jets continue to take off tomorrow?

Don't get me wrong, the USAF needs indirect support, thats why those jobs exist but on too many bases, the incentive ride program stands as a glaring example of how the "tail wags the dog".

My point is, most non-flightline types do not (cops excepted) work 12's for most of their careers the way maintainers do. I spent my last 3 AF as my AFSC's Wing Superintendent at Eielson. My office was in the Cool School building, 100 yards from the base hospital and 200 from the Wing HQ. I used to marvel at how the afternoon off-base migration started around 1500 and peaked well before 1630. Both parking lots were mostly empty well before 1600 on most days...a sweet deal for sections/squadrons that have a 0730-1630 "customer service" mission. I used to wonder how many wrench benders were in line to go home early. My hunch was not many.

SO when talk turns to rides and who gets them, its very understandable to see maintainers get frustrated. Their whole world is keeping the AF's reason-for-being mission ready. Personally, I don't have a problem with "noners" getting rides--gotta spread the wealth and all--but I do not believe that the experience is nearly as personal and as bonding for say an MPF trooop as it is for a kid who puts his hands to the jet every day.

Meathook's forgiveable MX bias not withstanding, he's more right than wrong.

Finally, IMHO, celebs should only get rides if they sign a contract to actively promote the AF, and for you MX guys, especially ACC crew chiefs...some AMU's take better care of their troops then others, thats a given, however there is a formal Dedicated Crew Chief Orientation Flight program outlined in ACCI 11-450. Ops should have a copy for you to peruse. If your Chief and/or Zero's aren't dicks and you still aren't getting rides then they may not be aware of this reg.

Casshan wrote:

I'm glad the maintainers are the only ones working in the USAF. Next time I roll in the gate at 10pm, I'll be sure to ask why that A1C is sitting at the gaurdshack, cause according to you he isn't really working since he isn't a maintainer.

Being MPF what the bologna are you doing coming through the gate at 10PM? You guys got mids now???? WOO HOO!!!!!

Arctus - Nice explanation, you are far more eloquent than I was but you made the point very well, I agree with you and I must admit, I am biased when it comes to the flightline and its people collectively - thanks for the explanation in your terms Smile

Even cops schedule is designed around their hours. They may work long hours but their schedule makes up for it. In my eight years as a maintainer we have always been on a 5 day work week with 12s scheduled throughout with the added bonus of a couple of 12's on the weekends.

Yes, that is so true, 12 hours became the "norm" quite some time ago didn't it..I remember them all too well myself. When I became a Maintenance Superintendent, my average day was 14 to 16 hours, my family (and I sometimes) hated it but I had to be available to work issues all hours of the day for the Commander and the good of the Squadron, damn...those were long hours.

I sure am spoil;ed now (as a civilian) working a 5, 4, 9 schedule. That is Monday to Thursday, nine hours with Friday being an eight hours shift and the next Friday OFF. I had no idea what I was missing until I got picked up by Civil Service...amazing hours (I am grateful for sure) but will never forget the long, very long hours on the flightline. Especially in the 70's and early 80's before we got Tab Vee's and Aircraft Shelters to help keep us warmer and out of the climate a bid more.

I remember the days in Europe (mostly bad weather in winter), snow, rain dripping down my arms and sleeves working on hydraulic systems that leaked like a sieve, damn engine oil, fuel...I can still smell it but looking back, it was the best thing I ever did.

Later brother......I will never forget what we all went though to make a scheduled launch (over and over again).

Well after reading, I thought I'd chime in. First off, I have blown up in posts here before so I'm certainly guilty of that but Meathook I'm a little dissapointed to see a fellow Air Force brother responding so harshly. I personally was a cop (our "12hr shifts" were more like 14 to 15hr shifts) and I can tell anyone here not in the Air Force, that the maintainers on the line work their butts off. Usually the maintainer's "weekend off" consisted of coming in Saturday afternoon/night and working, then coming back in late Sunday night. I know at Langley that "most" off the incentive flights went in this order: Maintainers / (Cops/Fire/Medics) / then everyone else. I earned one but never received it due to someone else more deserving than myself and I'm absolutely fine with that. One thing EVERYONE should remember is that these jets, yes even the tubs, are for warfighting first. Everything else should come second. Later Brothers,

Check

checksixx...no problem and I understand how you feel. I sure hope that my true meaning was not lost in transmission. I am Not against anyone outside maintenance getting a ride, not really. I just feel that a person working that type of system deserves it first since it is their blood, sweat and tears making it happen. I guess that is narrow minded of me but I feel strongly about it since like your self, you have been there and done that.

My son in law is Security Forces, I respect his job and his long hours away from his family and sometimes as you to know, the location and climate in that working condition can be horrible. Almost often, without a thank you from the things, people or assets you protect, I fully understand that.

But I just want to ensure the person that did the job at hand gets first shot at any glory or benefit that the job might have to offer, I am sure you would want that for your troops first too before you give that same consideration to someone outside that chain of events.

That is my point, like you folks, maintenance is often a very thankless job, we have to find the internal glory in the work itself and if a "bennie" comes your way or presents itself, well, it should stay in house first...that is my point.

I know both of our fields have earned that right first in my opinion. My maintainers always came first with me, still do, we all have jobs that are required and some more dangerous that others (that speaks for itself) but when it comes to taking care of our own, well that is our jobs too, part of the mission so I did and still do place my people that do the job ahead of those that don't.

Take care and I hope my fellow USAF brother understands having done tough and dangerous work yourself.

Forum: Careers & Assignments

Rides in military aircraft - who should get them and why?