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Document title: Poll: F-35 vs. F-22 & UCAV - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10551-view-next-sid-0ee07c212da39b614ef71080f85a78f9.html
Printed on: 11 October 2008

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Poll: F-35 vs. F-22 & UCAV



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Poll
Should the F-35...
Be canceled and an F-22 derivative & UCAV be pursued?
13%
 13%  [ 4 ]
Continue development and production?
86%
 86%  [ 26 ]
Total Votes : 30


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Obamanite
PostPosted: Aug 09, 2008 - 10:10 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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I think it would be interesting if we were to take a little poll, seeing as how we're in the midst of an election season. Should the F-35 program continue on the path it is currently on, or should it be canceled and another option be pursued? There are some intriguing obtions that can be considered. One of the less risky albeit more expensive options is to pursue a minimally modified F-22 strike version incorporating some systems from the F-35 such as its HMS, EOTS and DAS (plenty of room available as design already makes allowance for an internal IRST as well as radar side arrays). To save weight, and because this would be a dedicated ground attack aircraft (albeit with more than a significant air-to-air capability), I would envision getting rid of the TVC as well as the sidewinder bays, the latter enabling the primary weapons bay to be deepened for 2,000 lbs. class weapons and for fuel to take place of the sidewinder bays. Also, get rid of the gun (more fuel, as in the F-15E with its smaller bullet payload). Don't mess with the Raptor's exterior lines so as not to screw with its RCS, but consider implementing the (allegedly) more maintainable coatings developed for the F-35. Develop, or continue development of, stealthy external fuel tanks and weapons pods.

This would be a "stop-gap" measure to continue USAF recap until such a time as the "real" F-16/F-35 replacement comes along, namely, a super-duper UCAV incorporating many of the same systems already developed for the F-35 (aka Flying Turd). This UCAV, which would be much cheaper to acquire and to maintain than the F-35 (because you could keep it in a crate until such time as you actually need to use it), could come on-line around 2018, alongside the new bomber (they could liberally borrow tech from one another). Hold a competition starting right now (or when the next U.S. pres cancels the F-35, which is starting to look more than more likely), and have the whole program be overseen not by pencil pushers but by the folks at DARPA. Have the Skunk Works and Phantom Works reply to the RFP, not those respective outfits's corporate parents, which tend to turn everything they touch into a gold-plated turd. End result? Cheaper F-22s which may actually get us to the 381 the USAF needs, a strike aircraft that builds upon an airplane that is actually working and flying now, and a massive UCAV force that will be billions upon billions cheaper to acquire and operate than the F-35, not to mention infinitely more capable, particularly when it comes to range, persistence and broad-band stealth.

So, vote right ahead. Continue funding the Flying Turd (aka F-35), or pursue something like my proposal above???

P.S. - As for the USN, they seem delighted with their Superbugs and their heart was never into the F-35C. Let them continue to acquire Superbugs and have them pursue their very promising NUCAV. The Marines? We can't let them hold the USAF hostage because they want a jump-jet to fly from their mini-carriers. We've already let them shove the V-22 down our throats. Enough already.

As for our allies, get them used to the idea of UCAVs now. Have them wait it out until the latter becomes available and offer them the Superbug in the meantime if they want it. If not, let them buy the Rafale, Grippen, EF or whatever else they want. Neither the Pentagon nor the USAF exists for the sake of ensuring that LM can sell airplanes overseas.
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Beagle79
PostPosted: Aug 09, 2008 - 08:38 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Canceling F35 outright will most likely give us a truck load of VERY unhappy allies; that's probably not worth it unless a viable solution can be found for our friends abroad....

A totally combat capable fighter/bomber UAV is at least 2 decades away and UAVs are not necessary less expensive (if not more accident-prone) than manned aircraft. Perhaps it's wiser to go one step at a time (like the nEUROn UAV project)....

F22 or its derivative is probably the most viable solution as far as American need is concerned, but donno how long (or how costly) this High-without-Low decoupling can sustain. F22-Legacy (CCIP-F16s + F15Es + A10Cs) would probably do the trick for at least a decade or two....

An in-depth study is needed, that's for sure. Confused
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Obamanite
PostPosted: Aug 09, 2008 - 08:55 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Beagle79 wrote:
Canceling F35 outright will most likely give us a truck load of VERY unhappy allies; that's probably not worth it unless a viable solution can be found for our friends abroad....

A totally combat capable fighter/bomber UAV is at least 2 decades away and UAVs are not necessary less expensive (if not more accident-prone) than manned aircraft. Perhaps it's wiser to go one step at a time (like the nEUROn UAV project)....

F22 or its derivative is probably the most viable solution as far as American need is concerned, but donno how long (or how costly) this High-without-Low decoupling can sustain. F22-Legacy (CCIP-F16s + F15Es + A10Cs) would probably do the trick for at least a decade or two....

An in-depth study is needed, that's for sure. Confused


Well, both U.S. pres candidates have already vowed to do a top-down review of major weapon acquisition projects so that will happen (an in-depth study, that is). I have a hunch the F-35 won't make it through such a study, and I would rather it be canceled than for it to bleed to death from budget cuts, like the F-22, which at only 183 airframes cannot be regarded as having been cost-effective, unless, of course, the USAF gets close to the 381 that it wants. As for UCAV, I would say it is more like a decade away rather than two. Remember that the NGB may very well be unmanned, or at least a portion of said fleet. After all is said and done, I think it is the F-22 that will continue in production indefenitely, and something else will come along to take the place of the F-35. The Flying Turd is to warplanes as Iraq is to wars (and yes, we can blame the Clinton administration for the Frankenstein's Monster that the F-35 has proved to be)...
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Beagle79
PostPosted: Aug 09, 2008 - 10:48 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Ax or no ax, someone should implement strict prove-it-or-lose-it business concept on F35 instead of giving it unlimited benefit of doubt. Give the contractors a straight-forward task of building a stealthy STOVL on spec, on time and on budget before giving them the privilege to build air superiority, strike and/or naval variants in large quantities.

Europe does have good high-mid-low (Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen) platforms in production, but i’d hate to tell our good old allies that “sorry mates; the program is axed but thanks for your contribution!” A no-BS in-depth study and good consensus are too important. It just so happens that most of our international JSF partners are also the few close political buddies that we cannot afford to lose Shocked
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Sharkey
PostPosted: Aug 10, 2008 - 06:22 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I wonder if the F-35 partners would want a refund for the funds invested. Spending lots of money on it and then telling their tax payers that the money is gone. That would go well Smile
Well I am Dutch and know nothing about the F-35 except for what I have read here and there, but I seriously hope that the program continuous as I am confident that LM knows what they are doing. I am sure we can all look back at this in a few years time when loads of F-35's are flying around and think what were we worrying about Smile
Keep up the good work LM and can't wait for you to prove all the skeptics wrong. Oh yes btw that probably means my vote is for the F-35 Wink
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Aug 10, 2008 - 11:37 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Sharkey wrote:
I wonder if the F-35 partners would want a refund for the funds invested. Spending lots of money on it and then telling their tax payers that the money is gone. That would go well Smile
Well I am Dutch and know nothing about the F-35 except for what I have read here and there, but I seriously hope that the program continuous as I am confident that LM knows what they are doing. I am sure we can all look back at this in a few years time when loads of F-35's are flying around and think what were we worrying about Smile
Keep up the good work LM and can't wait for you to prove all the skeptics wrong. Oh yes btw that probably means my vote is for the F-35 Wink



Why would the US and its many JSF Partners want to cancel the F-35. When it's on the verge of cornering the Fighters Market for decades to come???


Really, the whole idea is one of the most ludicrous I have ever heard! Confused



Regardless, its never going to happen........ Wink
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Aug 11, 2008 - 12:01 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Beagle79 wrote:
Ax or no ax, someone should implement strict prove-it-or-lose-it business concept on F35 instead of giving it unlimited benefit of doubt. Give the contractors a straight-forward task of building a stealthy STOVL on spec, on time and on budget before giving them the privilege to build air superiority, strike and/or naval variants in large quantities.

Europe does have good high-mid-low (Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen) platforms in production, but i’d hate to tell our good old allies that “sorry mates; the program is axed but thanks for your contribution!” A no-BS in-depth study and good consensus are too important. It just so happens that most of our international JSF partners are also the few close political buddies that we cannot afford to lose Shocked



"Europe does have good high-mid-low platforms in production"?

Well, how well did the RAF Typhoons due against India's Flankers??? Let's say for arguement sake the Typhoon would have a 3 to 1 advantage in the real world against the Flanker. Is that good enough??? What about the new Su-35.............and what are the odds now??? Also, as long as we are talking hypotheticals. How will current and future Versions of the Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen do vs Russia's forthcoming PAK-FA and possible Chinese 5th Generation Fighters???


As a matter fact isn't Russia trying to resurrect its former Military Prowess! Really, Russia is becoming more aggressive by the day. With renewed Bomber Flights and conflicts with neighbors like Georgia??? Of course none of that even touches the growth in the China's Military............


Sorry, I don't think the West should give away its Technical Advantage for what mite be "Good Enough".......


With all do respect........
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Aug 11, 2008 - 12:05 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Obamanite wrote:
Beagle79 wrote:
Canceling F35 outright will most likely give us a truck load of VERY unhappy allies; that's probably not worth it unless a viable solution can be found for our friends abroad....

A totally combat capable fighter/bomber UAV is at least 2 decades away and UAVs are not necessary less expensive (if not more accident-prone) than manned aircraft. Perhaps it's wiser to go one step at a time (like the nEUROn UAV project)....

F22 or its derivative is probably the most viable solution as far as American need is concerned, but donno how long (or how costly) this High-without-Low decoupling can sustain. F22-Legacy (CCIP-F16s + F15Es + A10Cs) would probably do the trick for at least a decade or two....

An in-depth study is needed, that's for sure. Confused


Well, both U.S. pres candidates have already vowed to do a top-down review of major weapon acquisition projects so that will happen (an in-depth study, that is). I have a hunch the F-35 won't make it through such a study, and I would rather it be canceled than for it to bleed to death from budget cuts, like the F-22, which at only 183 airframes cannot be regarded as having been cost-effective, unless, of course, the USAF gets close to the 381 that it wants. As for UCAV, I would say it is more like a decade away rather than two. Remember that the NGB may very well be unmanned, or at least a portion of said fleet. After all is said and done, I think it is the F-22 that will continue in production indefenitely, and something else will come along to take the place of the F-35. The Flying Turd is to warplanes as Iraq is to wars (and yes, we can blame the Clinton administration for the Frankenstein's Monster that the F-35 has proved to be)...




Is that anything like what the current Australian Goverment said about the Super Hornet and Lightining before it took power! Wink



PLEASE Confused


Obviously, you know little about Politics. Idea
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Aug 11, 2008 - 12:10 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Beagle79 wrote:
Canceling F35 outright will most likely give us a truck load of VERY unhappy allies; that's probably not worth it unless a viable solution can be found for our friends abroad....

A totally combat capable fighter/bomber UAV is at least 2 decades away and UAVs are not necessary less expensive (if not more accident-prone) than manned aircraft. Perhaps it's wiser to go one step at a time (like the nEUROn UAV project)....

F22 or its derivative is probably the most viable solution as far as American need is concerned, but donno how long (or how costly) this High-without-Low decoupling can sustain. F22-Legacy (CCIP-F16s + F15Es + A10Cs) would probably do the trick for at least a decade or two....

An in-depth study is needed, that's for sure. Confused



Clearly, we a decades not years away from the CUAV's playing a dominate role in Air Combat. Supporting role yes........
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alaskanmarine1
PostPosted: Aug 20, 2008 - 08:09 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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The Navy will certainly need the F-35 to give it the range it once had with the Tomcat and Intruder. The Superhornet is a jack of all trades, but the range is very limited even with the ability to buddy tank.

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Corsair1963
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alaskanmarine1 wrote:
The Navy will certainly need the F-35 to give it the range it once had with the Tomcat and Intruder. The Superhornet is a jack of all trades, but the range is very limited even with the ability to buddy tank.




Without the Viking the USN Air Wings will have to use Super Hornets to fuel Super Hornets. Hardly a ideal solution..............Really, after the Hornets are replaced by Lightnings. Don't be surprised to see Super Hornets starting to be replaced by either more Lightings and/or CUAV's. Wink
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alaskanmarine1
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Days of Naval Aviation are certainly rather boring at the moment, With the exception of the Prowler (which days are numbe red) and Hawikeye, Everything right now is made by Boeing i.e. Superbugs and regular bugs, the regular bug is alright, but short legged and the Superbug isn't that much better. The days of almost all Ironworks aircraft are surely missed. F-14, A-6, EA-6B, E-2C all Grumman, the two exceptions were the a A-7 and S-3. Those were the days when naval aviation could truly kick-a$$ and take names.

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Corsair1963
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alaskanmarine1 wrote:
Days of Naval Aviation are certainly rather boring at the moment, With the exception of the Prowler (which days are numbe red) and Hawikeye, Everything right now is made by Boeing i.e. Superbugs and regular bugs, the regular bug is alright, but short legged and the Superbug isn't that much better. The days of almost all Ironworks aircraft are surely missed. F-14, A-6, EA-6B, E-2C all Grumman, the two exceptions were the a A-7 and S-3. Those were the days when naval aviation could truly kick-a$$ and take names.




That will of course change with the advent of the F-35C! Twisted Evil
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alaskanmarine1
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Still miss the Grumman days though.

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Corsair1963
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alaskanmarine1 wrote:
Still miss the Grumman days though.




Really, its to bad politics gets in the way............Personally, I would have loved to see both naval & Air Forces models of the F-22 and F-35. Thereby skipping the Super Hornet all together. While the Super Hornet is a good Striker today. A combined Raptor and Lightning Fleet shared with all branches of the US Military would have beenfar more capable and likely cheaper in the long run....... Crying or Very sad
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