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As per several news reports out today, Israeli PM Olmert will be in Washington in order to, among other things, push the Bush administration to let Israel purchase the F-22. Considering that McCain and Obama are trying to outdo each other to prove who is the bigger Friend of Israel, I wouldn't put it past the Bush administration to in fact lobby Congress to make an exemption within the Obey Amendment to allow sales of the Raptor to Israel. This being an election year, if ever Israel had any hopes of getting their hands on the Raptor, the timing could not possibly be better. For all photoshop enthusiasts, depictions of the Raptor in IAF garb welcome...

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I support Israel and any one of our allies but I do not support the sale of the 22 to anyone. America needs to remain uncontested. In all fields especially air power and by us letting an ally purchase the F-22 hempers us. Remember the BOTH Iraq and Iraq were at one point considered American allies. I'm not saying that anyone will turn coat on us soon but you never know. Besides what of their allies who aren't our allies or wanting to make a buck? I'm writing to my congressman and senator and letting them know the mistake of the saleing the Raptor to any foreign government and I advise every fellow American to do so. Its not a hate thing for other countries but a love for my country that I am doing this.

I actually started a thread back in mid-march here postulating the more recent Israeli Interest in acquiring F-22s. (during Israeli MoD visit). It's not unreasonable that they'd request it and understandable. My personal take would be to support only UK or AUS currently as first tier recipients (if requested) and Japan, Israel, Canada, Norway, Denmark and Nederlands as 2nd tier recipients if ever requested.

I'm in the camp that has no problem with entrusting and providing closest allies with such a first rate modern platform, (I mean we sell the most modern versions of F-15 and 16 to foreign air forces, more modern than in USAF).

Problem is, I highly advise against such sales as one could estimate killer maintenance and support costs for limited budgets abroad. Not to mention the outright purchase.

In Israel's case, I'm more in the camp that would support F-35/22 sales as a 'response' to Iran or Syria forinstance, first getting the Mig-31, 35 or Su-35BM (or new tactical/strategic missile proliferation). Call it a hedge and disincentive for such proliferation in region. No doubt, future foreign sales of Raptors would help keep the line operating and potentially decrease production costs for future USAF acquisition - but that shouldn't be a deciding motive in itself.

Perhaps Israeli govt is using a continued interest in F-22 to get better support in US politically, for 'cheaper' F-35 deal? F-22 is one awesome deterrence value though and true, is available now. Maybe they could 'lease' some airframes with domestic avionics installed? That could allay some security concerns within US too, imo.

They do need an incrementally brokered, non-aggression/peace treaty in mid-east however. (Perhaps link future F-22/35 sales as a reward for starting bi-lateral Israeli-Syrian agreement?) I.E., exercise some leverage over such a high value, discretionary military deal?

Just some random thoughts...

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 19, 2006 Posts: 88 Status: Offline

I think this subject has been beaten to death in other threads on this forum. It's perfectly natural for an Israeli Prime Minister to request export permission for the F-22. I wouldn't expect him to receive a positive response, however, for reasons that have been discussed before.

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 10, 2008 Posts: 72 Status: Offline

BAD idea IMO

1) Israel sold China the soul of the Lavi. Not to mention all the other help they've given the ChiComs.
2) We would end up selling the F-35 to the Saudis FOR SURE if Israel gets F-22.

vertical

The F-22 production line is in danger of being closed forever with only about 200 produced. Unit cost is clearly negatively affected by such a limited run. The Pentagon is focused on fighting insurgents and terrorists to the exclusion of adequately re-capitalizing the air forces. Selling this fighter to our closest most trusted allies would not only allow them to defend themselves and support us in the best way possible in future fights, it would reduce the unit cost and keep the line open, which keeps open the option of more USAF purchases and possible future "B", "C", etc. model Raptors. IMHO.

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 10, 2008 Posts: 72 Status: Offline

I agree. But I wouldn't put Israel on the list of "most trusted allies". We should definitely sell the Raptor to the Aussies, maybe the Japanese as well.

vertical

vertical wrote:

I agree. But I wouldn't put Israel on the list of "most trusted allies". We should definitely sell the Raptor to the Aussies, maybe the Japanese as well.

vertical

I disagree with your assessment of Israel. I would give the Raptor to Israel before any other country and even to the exclusion of any other country. Regarding Japan, ever heard of the spying flap with Toshiba as well as the selling of super-secret submarine tech to the Soviets by Japanese industry? Hardly trustworthy themselves...

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 10, 2008 Posts: 72 Status: Offline

Obamanite wrote:

vertical wrote:

I agree. But I wouldn't put Israel on the list of "most trusted allies". We should definitely sell the Raptor to the Aussies, maybe the Japanese as well.

vertical

I disagree with your assessment of Israel. I would give the Raptor to Israel before any other country and even to the exclusion of any other country. Regarding Japan, ever heard of the spying flap with Toshiba as well as the selling of super-secret submarine tech to the Soviets by Japanese industry? Hardly trustworthy themselves...

The "worst case" enemy of the future is China. Israel and its mil industry has a relationship with Chinese military aviation. There is no denying that. Selling them the F-22 is dumb. There is NO threat to Israel that justifies both F-35 AND F-22.

The same can not be said of the Japanese, in fact they are historical enemies in a region where history is well remembered. Sino-Japanese relations aren't what I would call warm. They realize China wants to be the big kid on the block, and that would not be to their advantage.

And BTW, I did say "MAYBE the Japanese as well". Smile

vertical

NOBODY but the USAF or other US branches should have the F-22 Raptor.

Sorry, but we just can't afford to sell the best of what we come up with- didn't do it with U-2, SR-71, F-117, or B-2. I'm not too sure about the F-35 either- but if we sell the F-22, I think it is going to bite us back REALLY hard in the long run.

Where are you getting your info from? All sources state that the PM for Israel is in Washington to push for getting the F-35 in early production lots even though they are not a Tier 1 member and did not help pay for funding the development of the F-35. If they are going to bomb Iran's secret nuclear plants, would you want an F-22 or multiple F-35's? hmm..

Interesting post, 'fighterfan'.

Personally, I have no reservation with selling a 15 yr old F-22 technology platform to UK and AUS and possibly to other friendly 'tiers' under strict conditions (if they ever requested the Raptor of course).

But regarding Israel, I would again argue that such an F-35 or F-22 should be sold ONLY as a RESPONSE to Syria or Iran first being sold Mig-31, -35 or Su-35BM (or equivalent), or deploying substantial S-400/500, or especially new class of advanced tactical/strategic ballistic missiles in future.

Such a pre-declared 'response' could serve as a potent deterrence in itself to discourage such proliferation of high-threat military hardware to this region!

While such unilateral proliferation of F-35/22 to Israel today, imo, could in fact help prompt the opposite and be used as a motive for others (at least publicly argued) to seek said technology as their own 'response' and deterrence. (Not a good regional development).

Carpe diem. God speed.

geogen wrote:

Interesting post, 'fighterfan'.

Personally, I have no reservation with selling a 15 yr old F-22 technology platform to UK and AUS and possibly to other friendly 'tiers' under strict conditions (if they ever requested the Raptor of course).

Geogen,
Nice little subtle slam on the F22 huh? Seems to me from a common sense standpoint, the so called age of the weapons tech tree is far less important then where our potential enemys are at tech wise on that same tech tree. If the F22 is 15 year old outdated tech as you seem to imply, and the closest anyone else may be to it is 15 years+, then that puts the US 30+ years ahead of anyone in that particular tech tree and thats what counts and we sure as hell should not be giving it to anyone. And that includes the Brits and the Aussies!

Seems to me Geogen that you're not all that impressed with either of the what is going to be worlds 2 best a/c in existence. Why we are even allowing these partner nations to have the F35 is beyond me. The US devotes hundreds of billions of dollars in R&D over the last 30 years on this lil tech thing known as stealth and now these countrys wanna buy into all this for what amounts to be absolutely nothing more then mere pocket change!! Now instead of a few bad apples in one country ( ours btw ) we now gotta worry about the bad apples ( and yes every country has those that would sell their mama for the right price ) in what, 8 or 9 countrys givin our tech away? I just hope we at least have enough brains to keep the ability to produce every nut and bolt to it so when we get in a war that one of those *partner* nations dont like, they will not be able to stop us from making our own dang plane by with-holding parts from us!!! Dont say they wouldnt do it either. Didnt Belgium or one of those no name European cry babys with- hold ammo from some British system at the start of GW2 because they didnt like the war? Didnt Turkey, the big NATO pal, that is getting this a/c not allow us to operate from their bases to start GW2, which caused a major head-ache for us? And you would give up that old and outdated F22 as well huh? The one a/c that has been taking the undisputed king of the hill in the F15 to the woodshed in numbers such as 2V8, 2V10 and 2V12. The only a/c in history to have a perfect undefeated record in combat. This king of the hill that has used all adversaries for the last 25 or 30 years as mere target practice when they chose to engage it that can now not even get a shot off, let alone take the Raptor out!! Personally I think your boss should have you drug tested the way you think!! Or are you and ELP one of those non Americans that loves to critizize everything we make and do, but at the same time wants us to give ya everything we got and of course, always come to your aid when things dont work out?

The F22 has literally changed the way air wars will be fought for the next 30 years and you wish the US to just give it away when there is absolutely nothing in existence now, or in the forseeable future that will touch this a/c. And please dont tell me about that Russian dream machine called the PAK FA for Gods sake. All I see about it is a lot of drawings and dreams so far. And even if it were to be made in the next 20 years, so what. By then the F22 will have evolved well beyond the absolute domination it already has and I'd bet be well on the way to being replaced by the next dominant US killing machine. That will be the enemys very first stealth a/c and we are suppose to beleive it will even come close to the Raptor which is a 3rd gen stealth US a/c?

We didnt export the F117 nor the B2 and we sure as heck should not be exporting the F22 either! All these a/c had one thing in common and that seems to me to be that they all 3 completely changed the way the game had to be played for our enemys. America and American taxpayers sacrificed greatly from a financial standpoint to obtain these aces in the hole and we should never give them up to anyone, be they friend or foe. It erks me to no end that all these so called *allies* seem to think they are entitled to this tech simply because they are our *allies*. I'm sorry but let our allies make the sacrifices Americans have made to provide for the defense of our country to get where we are and stop trying to leech off of the USA!! Maybe if our allies would make the sacrifices we have made by giving 4% or more of our GDP to stay ahead of the rest of the pac instead of the paultry 1-2% that seems to be the norm for them they to could have the latest and greates and we would not be having this discussion about who we should be selling ( giving ) it to.

geogen wrote:

But regarding Israel, I would again argue that such an F-35 or F-22 should be sold ONLY as a RESPONSE to Syria or Iran first being sold Mig-31, -35 or Su-35BM (or equivalent), or deploying substantial S-400/500, or especially new class of advanced tactical/strategic ballistic missiles in future.

Well I'd argue that Israel should get the F35 ahead of any of these other *partners* of ours. And they should have it well in advance of of anything Israels mortal enemys, you know the ones who refuse She even has the right to exist, the ones who say they will wipe Her from the planet and all these nice things, ever obtain anything that could threaten Israels existence

geogen wrote:

Such a pre-declared 'response' could serve as a potent deterrence in itself to discourage such proliferation of high-threat military hardware to this region!

Uh, you do watch TV right Geogen? Read the paper? Read magazines? Read on the net? Lets see, Iran is breaking its neck trying to obtain nukes as well as every other high tech piece of Russian hardware they can get their hands on. So scratch them from being detered right? Syria just got caught with their hand in the nuclear cookie jar and they to are trying their utmost to obtain the most hight tech weapons they can get their hands on. So much for deterring them to eh? Jordan, SA, UAE and on and on are buying the most advanced weaponry they can get their hands on from just about anyone that will sell it to them as far as I can tell. So scratch all them from that potent deterrence to huh? IOW Geogen, you are simply livin in a dream land of some type. No enemy of Israels has been deterred from trying to obtain the most powerful weapons they can buy before the F22 or F35 and not one is even thought about slowin it down since they have come on the scene. Matter fact they have picked up the pace if anything!

geogen wrote:

While such unilateral proliferation of F-35/22 to Israel today, imo, could in fact help prompt the opposite and be used as a motive for others (at least publicly argued) to seek said technology as their own 'response' and deterrence. (Not a good regional development).

See above. These countrys have NEVER needed any motive other then the fact Israel exists and thats all they need to arm to the teeth Geogen. BTW, have you ever even wondered why it is the Palestinians back in the Clinton presidency when offered 95% of what they claim to want for their so called state side by side with Israel turned it down? Why Jordan thats like 60% or more Palestinian has never just offered their brothers a nice little country next to Israel from their huge country? Same for Egypy and Syria and all the rest really? The reason is there is no such thing to them as a nation living side by side and in peace with Israel. They dont want a nation alongside of Israel Geogen. They want a nation in PLACE of Israel!!

Take care
Beazz

fighterfan wrote:

Where are you getting your info from? All sources state that the PM for Israel is in Washington to push for getting the F-35 in early production lots even though they are not a Tier 1 member and did not help pay for funding the development of the F-35. If they are going to bomb Iran's secret nuclear plants, would you want an F-22 or multiple F-35's? hmm..

It's been all over the news, and I'm sorry you have not come across such reports. This most recently from UPI:

"The U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee chairman said he would consider lifting a ban on the sale of the F-22 Raptor to Israel.

"'I'm a strong supporter of Israel getting all the material and equipment they need. I certainly would look at it,' said Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., about the possibility of removing the restriction on selling the F-22 stealth fighter jet.

"Until now, Berman's panel has blocked the sale of the F-22 to Israel, the Jerusalem Post reported Friday.

"'We're trying to lay a foundation for a tougher-minded evaluation of what assistance Israel needs,' Berman said.

"The F-22 is seen as a major advantage in a potential Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear plants because it can get past the most advanced defense technology, the newspaper said."

I think people on this board are just going to have to get used to the fact that Israel will most likely get the F-22.

Obamanite wrote:

fighterfan wrote:

Where are you getting your info from? All sources state that the PM for Israel is in Washington to push for getting the F-35 in early production lots even though they are not a Tier 1 member and did not help pay for funding the development of the F-35. If they are going to bomb Iran's secret nuclear plants, would you want an F-22 or multiple F-35's? hmm..

It's been all over the news, and I'm sorry you have not come across such reports. This most recently from UPI:

"The U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee chairman said he would consider lifting a ban on the sale of the F-22 Raptor to Israel.

"'I'm a strong supporter of Israel getting all the material and equipment they need. I certainly would look at it,' said Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., about the possibility of removing the restriction on selling the F-22 stealth fighter jet.

"Until now, Berman's panel has blocked the sale of the F-22 to Israel, the Jerusalem Post reported Friday.

"'We're trying to lay a foundation for a tougher-minded evaluation of what assistance Israel needs,' Berman said.

"The F-22 is seen as a major advantage in a potential Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear plants because it can get past the most advanced defense technology, the newspaper said."

I think people on this board are just going to have to get used to the fact that Israel will most likely get the F-22.

Well, since all those quotes are from that one article in the JP I don't know that it constitutes all over the news. I see several hours daily and I haven't saw anything on it either.

Also it appears the individual writing the article kind of draws his own conclusions from the congressmans statements. Or maybe it was your conclusion that by saying he *would look at it*, he was saying he was in favor of lifting the ban on a sale of the F22 to Israel. I don't know how you make the leap from *look at it* to *consider lifting the ban* in that statement. All I get from that statement is he will simply look at the ban of sales of the F22, period. I think your stretching it to deduct from that statement he is now in favor of selling the F22 to Israel, or anyone else for that mater. To me that was more polite political speak for.. don't call us...we'll call you... I simply see the standard US policy of ....We Support Israel and will continue to evaluate what Israel needs... And what Israel considers itself needing and what the US considers Israel needing is NOT always the same, as I am sure you know. Nothing new or earth shattering by anything he said to me.

My Two Cents

worth anyhow,

Beazz

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