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Document title: F-16.net - Vipers in COIN Opns :: F-16.net :: The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10342-start-30-sid-34b3dc50d1ac1212040c3762e383e485.html
Printed on: 06 September 2008

Forum: Air Power

Vipers in COIN Opns



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rickster25
PostPosted: May 01, 2008 - 10:09 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Hahaha....security first before progress.
Her trips to China looks like she's selling our nation's Spratlys claim without a fight. How many Vipers would it take to make the Chinese have second thoughts invading our territory in the Spratlys? Crying or Very sad

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locum
PostPosted: May 01, 2008 - 03:40 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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I do not understand, why you want Vipers doing COIN-missions, your country is (very) Peso-strapped. OK, the purchase price of a second hand Vipers is probably the same as a brand new AT-6B or Super Tucano. Operating costs per hour of the turbo-prop types are 5 times less than that of the F-16!! That's what we call cost-effectivness or value for money. Second, I think that those turbo-props are better suited for COIN than the F-16, of course you need some Vipers to do the air-policing job. Take a look at http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-7649.html

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Snick
PostPosted: May 01, 2008 - 05:20 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Well well.... Let's wait.... I wish that happens, an SU-27 scaring a Bell 412!!

To "locum", sir I understand our economic status, but we were just talking about a "What-If" thing here..
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SpudmanWP
PostPosted: May 01, 2008 - 08:25 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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rickster25 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
Forget F-16s as COIN... get a turboprop.

Why? Question
Turbo-props can't be effective for external defense.
I'm just researching the viability of the F-16 in a COIN operations.


Because COIN ops are not suited to fast movers. If your worried about other AC, that's what CAP is for.

Good COIN ops requires Low and Slow for good target ID and loiter ability. Also, the ability to sneak up on the enemy is important.
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Snick
PostPosted: May 02, 2008 - 06:39 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I agree with you Spud, turboprops are better for COIN.. Bronco is doing it well.

Viper "What-If" in this discussion is useful in a surgical mission or territorial patrols.
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locum
PostPosted: May 02, 2008 - 02:09 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Snick wrote 'in a surgical mission or territorial patrols'. I agree with SpudmanWP about the turbo-props, but fast jets can also play usefull roles in COIN. In http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-5682.html Vipers are acting as airborne Snipers and maybe equipped with 'Snipers' and as non-traditional Intelligence Surveillance Recon platform. LGB's are released at 30,000 - 40,000 ft / 9 - 12 km, so you cannot hear the launchplane, the resulting surprise attack gives a demoralising effect at the insurgents.

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rickster25
PostPosted: May 02, 2008 - 02:30 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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locum wrote:
Snick wrote 'in a surgical mission or territorial patrols'. I agree with SpudmanWP about the turbo-props, but fast jets can also play usefull roles in COIN. In http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-5682.html Vipers are acting as airborne Snipers and maybe equipped with 'Snipers' and as non-traditional Intelligence Surveillance Recon platform. LGB's are released at 30,000 - 40,000 ft / 9 - 12 km, so you cannot hear the launchplane, the resulting surprise attack gives a demoralising effect at the insurgents.


Good idea locum! Thumb

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SpudmanWP
PostPosted: May 02, 2008 - 09:16 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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How about reviving the ARES? ARES Wiki

Good info about the program here 1/2 way down this page

btw, it's out of mothballs an took to the air in early 2008.... wonder who paid for that?
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Snick
PostPosted: May 03, 2008 - 07:00 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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locum wrote:
Snick wrote 'in a surgical mission or territorial patrols'. I agree with SpudmanWP about the turbo-props, but fast jets can also play usefull roles in COIN. In http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-5682.html Vipers are acting as airborne Snipers and maybe equipped with 'Snipers' and as non-traditional Intelligence Surveillance Recon platform. LGB's are released at 30,000 - 40,000 ft / 9 - 12 km, so you cannot hear the launchplane, the resulting surprise attack gives a demoralising effect at the insurgents.


-Exactly Locum!! The "What-If" Viper would be dubbed "Leader Killers"! Like how they got Zarqawi in Iraq...
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locum
PostPosted: May 03, 2008 - 02:46 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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SpudmanWP wrote 'wonder who paid for that?'. Scaled Composites is now owned by Northrop Grumman, they use the ARES as a research testbed, equipped with dorsal radome, open gun-bay and underwing box fairings.

The ARES has the right parameters for a COIN-plane: cheap, simple, robust, easy to maintain /to repair /to fly, 4 hours endurance and it can be manufactured locally in The Phillppines. However, there is also a political parameter.

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elp
PostPosted: May 04, 2008 - 05:15 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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F-16 is already "COIN"

LITENING or SNIPER Pod

(GFAC) Ground Forward Air Controller (JTAC) with the ground element ( Specfor, etc)

BLU-126B ( a detuned BLU-111 (MK-82-like 500 pounder that has less explosive material)

Dual use Paveway example Enhanced Paveway (LBG or INS/GPS)

or

LJDAM dual use JDAM (INS/GPS or Laser)


PGMs in this class are not "expensive". You will look awful silly showing up in low cloud cover with dumb iron, rockets... whatever when you GFAC is calling for support and you can't give it. Where, the PGM kits above will do the job through cloud cover.

Also in the case of the U.S., PGMs aren't "expensive". A KIA G.I. is well over 400k or more just on death benefits.

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elp
PostPosted: May 04, 2008 - 05:26 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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SpudmanWP wrote:


Because COIN ops are not suited to fast movers. If your worried about other AC, that's what CAP is for.

Good COIN ops requires Low and Slow for good target ID and loiter ability. Also, the ability to sneak up on the enemy is important.


Kinda and Kinda not. Early on in for example Iraq, there were a lot of support missions going on over a vast distance. That has tappered down a lot. The best COIN is something that kills what is supposed to be killed and the idea that a fast mover can't do it is proven wrong time and again in Iraq and Afcrapistan. See above.

Which if loiter is the issue, a UAV has to be part of the team. COIN isn't just about the shooter end of it. Also consider that the Apache has become a wonderful night time netcentric COIN killer when used in combined clearing operations.

There are X-rated videos out there that show insurges walking along not knowing they are under observation and getting killed by a GBU landing on them. Same with the Apache doing long range gun shots. They didn't know where the fire was coming from because they were already dead.

Certainly though some low and slow attack aircraft are needed. But they should be NVG compatible and have the ability to drop all weather munitions too. Right now it isn't a fast or slow mover thing in places like Iraq, it is a cost thing, where in the case of USAF they are flat out of money and some have proposed that cheaper airframes that don't suck down so many dollars per flight hour are needed as part of the total team of flying strikers in the tool bag.
Quote:

The armed reconnaissance aircraft is part of a bold plan conceived by Col. Gary Crowder, commander of the Middle East-based Combined Air and Space Operations Center, to upgrade the Air Force’s theater control system, which the service uses for air-to-ground integration.

The core doctrinal principles of the system -- which “is showing a bit of its age” -- date back to World War II and the core organization capabilities, which includes structure and sizing, date back to the mid-1980s, when the United States was preparing for a potential Soviet invasion of Western Europe.

“What we have found over here is that the structure, which focuses almost exclusively on providing the Army kinetic . . . close air support, is being taxed pretty hard because that’s not what [they’re] asking us to give,” he said in an April 1 telephone interview referring to Iraq and Afghanistan.

The aircraft conducting combat missions over Iraq and Afghanistan drop bombs, strafe targets, or perform a low-level show-of-force only 10 percent of the time. The jets and unmanned drones primarily are used for what the military calls armed reconnaissance, meaning their mission is to pass video and other data gathered through sensors and targeting pods back to an operations center where it can analyzed.

But in a world where irregular warfare is the primary focus -- and appears to be for the foreseeable future -- a balance of fighter jets and armed prop-driven aircraft could prove beneficial, Crowder said. “There really has not been a substantial . . . intellectual investment into what I think I would call air-ground integration looks like in the 21st Century,” he said. “Everyone’s going down this irregular warfare pike, and I think, in some ways, that’s a red herring, because, if you create an irregular warfare unit what do you do if you don’t have irregular warfare?”

“If 90 percent of what we do is armed reconnaissance, then why am I doing it with an F-16 that might cost me 30 times as much as an AT-6?”

“The challenge we face in this fight is we are fighting counterinsurgency with major combat operation forces, and that’s why it’s costing us reported numbers as high as $12 billion a month,” he said. “This is not an affordable long-term solution for the nation."


Marcus Weisgerber: Light-Attack Plane Could Save USAF Billions in O&M, Preserve Fighters, April 4, 2008.

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SpudmanWP
PostPosted: May 05, 2008 - 03:09 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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ELP = Spot on Smile

My musings on the ARES were based on the early testing that was done under specific gov funding on certain projects. I did not know NG was using it internally. Pics? News?

I was proposing the ARES (or other current turboprop) based on a non-USA customer. Imagine Afghanistan or Iraq AFTER we leave. They cannot afford F-16s for COIN (hell, neither can we Smile) and armed UCAVs are not an option either (too costly and technical to operate).

Imagine a ARES with a few DAS units (facing forward and down), from the F-35 (great situation awareness), for a great way to sneak through the mountains to sneak up on the enemy. Add DAGR, other guided 2.75 rocket, or other cheap pgm and you have a very cheap an VERY lethal Armed Recon / COIN aircraft.
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rickster25
PostPosted: May 05, 2008 - 03:38 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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PGMs are cheaper than a soldiers life is true. Can anyone put a pricelist of JDAMs, LGBs and other stuff that can be useful for the Viper in COIN ops as Airborne Snipers? Guiness

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rickster25
PostPosted: May 05, 2008 - 03:40 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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locum wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote 'wonder who paid for that?'. Scaled Composites is now owned by Northrop Grumman, they use the ARES as a research testbed, equipped with dorsal radome, open gun-bay and underwing box fairings.

The ARES has the right parameters for a COIN-plane: cheap, simple, robust, easy to maintain /to repair /to fly, 4 hours endurance and it can be manufactured locally in The Phillppines. However, there is also a political parameter.


what's that political parameter, locum? Question

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