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Document title: F-16.net - Why the JSF/F22? :: F-16.net :: The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10151-start-15-sid-266979bd14a243bf2665f815d950637e.html
Printed on: 07 September 2008

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Why the JSF/F22?



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vegasdave901
PostPosted: Mar 25, 2008 - 03:15 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Don't forget that old Cold War staple. "Deterrent Factor". When said dictator gets his war committee together to discuss whether a war with the US is winnable, sustainable, or at least costly for the US even thought they will probably lose, do you want his advisors to say, "the USAF just doubled their fleet of F-16CJ's, but we can really bloody their nose and draw out a prolonged air war."? Or do you want them to say, "The USAF just fielded the F-22 and F-35, we can't see them, we can't detect them and just one of those airplanes can knock out many of our fighters and bomb our cities and airfields invisibly. We don't recommend a war at this time."? And if they actually are crazy enough to start a war, that threat is real not just disinformation. I'd rather have a laser gun and never have to defend myself than have the latest hottest rifle and have some criminal say, "I can probably take him!"
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geogen
PostPosted: Mar 25, 2008 - 11:44 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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LOL, Vegasd, pretty classic scenario, sir. Doh

Truly, the successful 'Deterrent factor' imo, is sustained in flexibility and numerous elements of capability. The problem with shrinking everything down to as big of a small number as possible of LO - dominated, strike fighter doctrine, is that the potential adversary will just narrow the scope of a counter-doctrine to counter LO... effecting a mobilizing of sufficient sectors of his defense, to contain the LO strategy.

I mean, unless its a huge head-fake, we've pretty much broadcasted to the whole world til we're blue in the face, what our tactical thrust and concentration is for the next 35 yrs! Wowser!

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Su27_pilot
PostPosted: Mar 27, 2008 - 03:21 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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vegasdave901 wrote:
Don't forget that old Cold War staple. "Deterrent Factor". When said dictator gets his war committee together to discuss whether a war with the US is winnable, sustainable, or at least costly for the US even thought they will probably lose, do you want his advisors to say, "the USAF just doubled their fleet of F-16CJ's, but we can really bloody their nose and draw out a prolonged air war."? Or do you want them to say, "The USAF just fielded the F-22 and F-35, we can't see them, we can't detect them and just one of those airplanes can knock out many of our fighters and bomb our cities and airfields invisibly. We don't recommend a war at this time."? And if they actually are crazy enough to start a war, that threat is real not just disinformation. I'd rather have a laser gun and never have to defend myself than have the latest hottest rifle and have some criminal say, "I can probably take him!"


do you really beleive that F22 and F35 can pass undetected by S300PMU2 and S400 air defence systems?
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LMAggie
PostPosted: Mar 27, 2008 - 09:48 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Su27_pilot wrote:
vegasdave901 wrote:
Don't forget that old Cold War staple. "Deterrent Factor". When said dictator gets his war committee together to discuss whether a war with the US is winnable, sustainable, or at least costly for the US even thought they will probably lose, do you want his advisors to say, "the USAF just doubled their fleet of F-16CJ's, but we can really bloody their nose and draw out a prolonged air war."? Or do you want them to say, "The USAF just fielded the F-22 and F-35, we can't see them, we can't detect them and just one of those airplanes can knock out many of our fighters and bomb our cities and airfields invisibly. We don't recommend a war at this time."? And if they actually are crazy enough to start a war, that threat is real not just disinformation. I'd rather have a laser gun and never have to defend myself than have the latest hottest rifle and have some criminal say, "I can probably take him!"


do you really beleive that F22 and F35 can pass undetected by S300PMU2 and S400 air defence systems?


I believe that the reason the US government is still pushing stealth, is because they believe that.

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biffbutkus
PostPosted: Mar 27, 2008 - 10:01 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Su27_pilot wrote:
vegasdave901 wrote:
Don't forget that old Cold War staple. "Deterrent Factor". When said dictator gets his war committee together to discuss whether a war with the US is winnable, sustainable, or at least costly for the US even thought they will probably lose, do you want his advisors to say, "the USAF just doubled their fleet of F-16CJ's, but we can really bloody their nose and draw out a prolonged air war."? Or do you want them to say, "The USAF just fielded the F-22 and F-35, we can't see them, we can't detect them and just one of those airplanes can knock out many of our fighters and bomb our cities and airfields invisibly. We don't recommend a war at this time."? And if they actually are crazy enough to start a war, that threat is real not just disinformation. I'd rather have a laser gun and never have to defend myself than have the latest hottest rifle and have some criminal say, "I can probably take him!"


do you really beleive that F22 and F35 can pass undetected by S300PMU2 and S400 air defence systems?


A very simplistic point of view...no one has claimed "undetectability." The point is to reduce the the threat range from hundreds of km to tens of km. This places you in range of a number of weapons to neuter these systems. Besides, the Isrealis have recently shown how vulnerable Syrian (Russian) air defense networks were when they made the strike on the nuke facility back in the fall. Russian "experts" were reportedly so stumped as to what happened that they made a trip to Syria to figure out what happened.

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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 02:23 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I think the better question is whether S300PMU and S400 users think that they can effective defend their airspace when each battery can now only protect a 40km area vs a 400km area, and the seekers of each one of the missiles they do get to fire can only acquire the target at say 2.5 km vs say 25km greatly decreasingly their PK. The same goes for AWACs and fighters.
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elp
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 05:38 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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dwightlooi wrote:
I think the better question is whether S300PMU and S400 users think that they can effective defend their airspace when each battery can now only protect a 40km area vs a 400km area, and the seekers of each one of the missiles they do get to fire can only acquire the target at say 2.5 km vs say 25km greatly decreasingly their PK. The same goes for AWACs and fighters.


Good point but just be careful as you get down into into the lower GHZ range. The best stealth aircraft designers can hope for is to make a craft resistant to some degree in the 1~20GHZ range. Which means if you have a "fuzzball" shape UFO, you might be able to pull that whole range... tail less aircraft... a little worse... vertical tails like the F-117,F-35, F-22 worse than that and so on.

There is power output of the S-300, S-400 shooter to consider, what ever ability those machines have to dip below X-band and lower, and the fact that stealth aircraft aren't perfect....again that turning/banking thing possibly blowing your RCS,..... again that is why the extreme altitude and super-cruise of the F-22 are important. Since USAF has all but thrown away it's stand off jamming ability and USN has said very plainly that the Growler is NOT to replace the EA-6 as a "joint" escort jamming resource. The Growler is only being funded for carrier ops and not Joint USAF support ops. Navy is sticking to their guns on that one.

If B-52SOJ doesn't come through. And the fact that few escort jammers could keep up with the fancy and fast footwork of the F-35 and F-22, even the USAF is going to have it's work cut out for it with the F-22 having no jamming support to minimize the X-band threats and beat down the lower band threats.

Someone better get more funding for MALD and the powered version of the JSOW (JSOW-ER) if they want F-35 to stand up in front of some first day... Taiwan scenario in the coming years.

Then again if DEWS show up in 20 years... all this investment in stealth for stealths sake, might look a little silly. Laughing

If I was making S-300 and S-400 missiles, I'd make some of them with a focal plane visual sensor not unlike the AIM-9x, AIM-132. Get close with S-band data-link guidance and terminal with something visual seeking.

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Su27_pilot
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 08:10 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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[quote="biffbutkus"][quote="Su27_pilot"]
vegasdave901 wrote:
the Isrealis have recently shown how vulnerable Syrian (Russian) air defense networks were when they made the strike on the nuke facility back in the fall. Russian "experts" were reportedly so stumped as to what happened that they made a trip to Syria to figure out what happened.


...these are muslim countries with low education officers,soldiers, population etc...in war 1999 in Serbia,NATO managed to destroy only 13 Serbian tanks for 78days of bombing because Serbian army had a lots of forests for hiding and puting fake tanks made of paper and wood...stealth improves,but doesnt make plane invincible...F117 was shot down in Serbia 1999 with 30yrs old system NEVA,and 2 more were damaged...if you want to survive,you must be smart to hide and deceive your enemy...Serbian engeneers were making fake airstrips and fake MiGs29 of thick paper,dressing dolls from stores in military uniforms etc...





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geogen
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 08:51 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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ELP, brilliant points there to contemplate. I share your sentiments, I think, about challenging the 'deciders that be' to get some serious munitions and tactics to match the almighty LO stealth-heavy reliance. It's a bit frustrating to hear... oh, those munitions, or that integration, are too expensive.. Poke


And Su-27 pilot,

Sir, the Balkan wars and '99 NATO bombardment intervention were very tragic time in recent history for peoples of that region as well as humankind in general, imo. And if you are Serb, I will personally extend my greetings to you as an average American civilian with Russian and Serbian friends here... and share my wishes that such events will never occur again in Europe.

I think the major tensions right now, anywhere in the world, are further inflamed by threatening rhetoric on military issues, from various military/political leaders as a response to legitimate geo-political divisions. Becoming vicious cycles. It's unfortunate, but hopefully such tensions can be normalized soon and a global-wide process of 'Demilitarization' can follow. This is my personal wish.

Escalating combat/ strategic posturing on such scale should not be treated as a video or chess game, which is a shame, imo.

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Su27_pilot
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 10:11 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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thank you...i only wanted to say how every aspect in military is important for surviving on battlefield if you use your brain and skills...you are right about disarming,but there will always be rich people trying to become more richer and powerfull by causing conflicts and stuff...i almost forgot,one of the most important things for war is a motivation...if you are motivated,you will be good,if not you wont be good as you thought you would... Rolling Eyes
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Pilotasso
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 01:24 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Su27_pilot wrote:

...these are muslim countries with low education officers,soldiers, population etc...in war 1999 in Serbia,NATO managed to destroy only 13 Serbian tanks for 78days of bombing because Serbian army had a lots of forests for hiding and puting fake tanks made of paper and wood...stealth improves,but doesnt make plane invincible...F117 was shot down in Serbia 1999 with 30yrs old system NEVA,and 2 more were damaged...if you want to survive,you must be smart to hide and deceive your enemy...Serbian engeneers were making fake airstrips and fake MiGs29 of thick paper,dressing dolls from stores in military uniforms etc...


THe Muslim incompetence is a myth realy...
What hinders them from being combat effective is the doctrine they learned from the russians plus their equipment.
This has been proven in the 1973 war when the Egyptians where the laughing stock of russian "experts" so Russia sent 130 planes,+ pilots, SAM bateries and 20000 men to operate them, wich... hummm didnt quite improve over the egyptians either.

There was a soviet strategist that wrote, that the result of the defeat in the AA scenario was over dependence of ground based anti air defenses along with a serious lack of ELINT and capable auntonomous combat systems electronics onboard of the highly GCI dependent Fighters. A lesson that the Israelis have learned long ago and correctly apply it with the right equipment. I am not surprised they can penetrate those old russian made defenses, at all.

As for the Serbia, they were very smart but could only take desperate measures. The conflict was lost to them from the start anyway. The F-117 downing was the rusult of positioning of defenses given the fact that the same plane was flying over the same flight path every night. It didnt require guided weapons to destroy it at all. Stealth is not dumbass proof, its a measure to increase survivability and does not discart the use of proper tactics.
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Su27_pilot
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 01:56 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Pilotasso wrote:
Su27_pilot wrote:

...these are muslim countries with low education officers,soldiers, population etc...in war 1999 in Serbia,NATO managed to destroy only 13 Serbian tanks for 78days of bombing because Serbian army had a lots of forests for hiding and puting fake tanks made of paper and wood...stealth improves,but doesnt make plane invincible...F117 was shot down in Serbia 1999 with 30yrs old system NEVA,and 2 more were damaged...if you want to survive,you must be smart to hide and deceive your enemy...Serbian engeneers were making fake airstrips and fake MiGs29 of thick paper,dressing dolls from stores in military uniforms etc...


THe Muslim incompetence is a myth realy...
What hinders them from being combat effective is the doctrine they learned from the russians plus their equipment.
This has been proven in the 1973 war when the Egyptians where the laughing stock of russian "experts" so Russia sent 130 planes,+ pilots, SAM bateries and 20000 men to operate them, wich... hummm didnt quite improve over the egyptians either.

There was a soviet strategist that wrote, that the result of the defeat in the AA scenario was over dependence of ground based anti air defenses along with a serious lack of ELINT and capable auntonomous combat systems electronics onboard of the highly GCI dependent Fighters. A lesson that the Israelis have learned long ago and correctly apply it with the right equipment. I am not surprised they can penetrate those old russian made defenses, at all.

As for the Serbia, they were very smart but could only take desperate measures. The conflict was lost to them from the start anyway. The F-117 downing was the rusult of positioning of defenses given the fact that the same plane was flying over the same flight path every night. It didnt require guided weapons to destroy it at all. Stealth is not dumbass proof, its a measure to increase survivability and does not discart the use of proper tactics.

...it wasnt lost completely...before conflict NATO wanted to walk into Serbia and do freely what ever they want...after 78days of war,agreement has been signed,and NATO enters only in kosovo...

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Pilotasso
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 02:03 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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...and the regime fell giving place for democracy, and all its former leaders having been hunted down ever since. An even better deal than risking lives in a guerrilla war on both sides.
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biffbutkus
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Su27pilot- Imagine how many NATO aircraft flying the high-risk missions would have been shot down if legacy aircraft had been used. The Serbs were a cunning enemy with the terrain and weather working in their favor.

As for the poor showing by Arab states...I chalk that up more to the piss-poor tactics and equipment supplied by uhhhhh Russia. Let's face it, over the past 50 years Russian military performance has been abysmal and the performance of their satellite states has been equally bad. What more do I need to say here?

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Su27_pilot
PostPosted: Mar 28, 2008 - 03:37 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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well,when NATO attacked Serbia,NATO was more than 50x stronger in military and financial aspect...and you think that is fair play by NATO?attacking 3rd world country,acting like a bully around the world...

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