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dwightlooi
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Posted: Mar 28, 2008 - 09:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
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Viperalltheway wrote:
What if the aircraft is already flying at M2.5? Would the entire fuel be used in VFDR mode and would the range be increased? - like maybe an F-22 on AB.
No. The VFDR is structured such that ~2/3 of the fuel volume will ALWAYS be expended in boost. If you look at the Meteor cutaway, it'll be the section to the aft of the "interstage" and valve. When you light the Meteor, the aft 2/3s of the motor burns just like a rocket. Once that empties out, the fuel rich sustainer cuts in and burns with air from the intake. You can't take the boost fuel grain and have that do something else.
What will happen though is that the booster burn out velocity will be higher and the VFDR take over speed will consequently also be higher. The same applies for the solid fuel rocket. The portion of the motor designed to produce very high thrust for a short duration will always do that regardless of launch speed. The sustainer will always burn at it's prescribed rate, again, regardless of the launch speed. You'll need to go back to the drawing boards to change that.
If you are to design a VFDR missile is designed to burn all of its fuel in VFDR mode, you'll have a missile which cannot be launched unless the aircraft reaches Mach 2.5 before firing and the acceleration from Mach 2.5 to say Mach 4 may be painfully slow. It will however, go a lot further! |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Mar 28, 2008 - 10:43 PM
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Viperalltheway wrote:
To continue on what I was saying:
- the F-22 has good strike capabilities. It can carry 8 SDBs. From what I read the F-16 block 25 are used mainly for a/a. They will not be equipped with SDBs. They can't even carry JDAMs.
- the F-22 could carry a/g weapons on external stations. Up to 24 total SDBs could be carried when stealth is not required.
- The F-22 is much more lethal than the F-15C. 160-180 F-22 are the equivalent of at least the double of F-15, that is about 350 F-15s.
- the F-15Cs could be armed with FMRAAMs even without APG-63 V(3). The APG-63 V(1) is still a good radar with a good range, and the FMRAAMs could recieve their targeting information from F-22s through the FDL. Arming the F-15s as they are with FMRAAMs would already make them significantly more lethal - and survivable.
- the B-2s can carry 80 JDAMs.
- the B-1s and B-2s will soon be able to carry about 200 SDBs. That's the same number of PGMs as 50 F-16s ( 4 PGMs per F-16 ).
I didn't work today so I had time to think about things that are very useful.. ahahah
The F-22 does not have the sensors package to support the same kind of strike capabilities as the F-35. Incorporating those will significantly increase the unit price and will require significant development time.
As it stands, the projected "best case" production cost estimate for the F-22 in 2005 dollars is $108 million in in 36/year quanitities. The best case for the F-35 is $48 million. |
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Viperalltheway
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 12:39 AM
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Veteran

Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| I was just saying that it would be cheap to integrate external SDBs. The F-22 will already be capable of using SDBs. The APG-77 has been modified to get the targetting data for the SDB. You just need to do the flight testing with the external racks and buy the racks. |
Last edited by Viperalltheway on Mar 29, 2008 - 12:53 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Viperalltheway
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 12:50 AM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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dwightlooi wrote:
Viperalltheway wrote:
What if the aircraft is already flying at M2.5? Would the entire fuel be used in VFDR mode and would the range be increased? - like maybe an F-22 on AB.
No. The VFDR is structured such that ~2/3 of the fuel volume will ALWAYS be expended in boost. If you look at the Meteor cutaway, it'll be the section to the aft of the "interstage" and valve. When you light the Meteor, the aft 2/3s of the motor burns just like a rocket. Once that empties out, the fuel rich sustainer cuts in and burns with air from the intake. You can't take the boost fuel grain and have that do something else.
What will happen though is that the booster burn out velocity will be higher and the VFDR take over speed will consequently also be higher. The same applies for the solid fuel rocket. The portion of the motor designed to produce very high thrust for a short duration will always do that regardless of launch speed. The sustainer will always burn at it's prescribed rate, again, regardless of the launch speed. You'll need to go back to the drawing boards to change that.
If you are to design a VFDR missile is designed to burn all of its fuel in VFDR mode, you'll have a missile which cannot be launched unless the aircraft reaches Mach 2.5 before firing and the acceleration from Mach 2.5 to say Mach 4 may be painfully slow. It will however, go a lot further!
I guess that could be an idea for the F-22 for long range engagements, especially since the F-22 is said to be able to supercruise at M2. The booster could be cut in half or something. The missile may not fly as fast but it's not a big drawback since the target would be taken by surprise most of the time.
Max range would be increased to what 250km? |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 02:30 AM
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Elite

Joined: Aug 02, 2006
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Viperalltheway wrote:
dwightlooi wrote:
Viperalltheway wrote:
What if the aircraft is already flying at M2.5? Would the entire fuel be used in VFDR mode and would the range be increased? - like maybe an F-22 on AB.
No. The VFDR is structured such that ~2/3 of the fuel volume will ALWAYS be expended in boost. If you look at the Meteor cutaway, it'll be the section to the aft of the "interstage" and valve. When you light the Meteor, the aft 2/3s of the motor burns just like a rocket. Once that empties out, the fuel rich sustainer cuts in and burns with air from the intake. You can't take the boost fuel grain and have that do something else.
What will happen though is that the booster burn out velocity will be higher and the VFDR take over speed will consequently also be higher. The same applies for the solid fuel rocket. The portion of the motor designed to produce very high thrust for a short duration will always do that regardless of launch speed. The sustainer will always burn at it's prescribed rate, again, regardless of the launch speed. You'll need to go back to the drawing boards to change that.
If you are to design a VFDR missile is designed to burn all of its fuel in VFDR mode, you'll have a missile which cannot be launched unless the aircraft reaches Mach 2.5 before firing and the acceleration from Mach 2.5 to say Mach 4 may be painfully slow. It will however, go a lot further!
I guess that could be an idea for the F-22 for long range engagements, especially since the F-22 is said to be able to supercruise at M2. The booster could be cut in half or something. The missile may not fly as fast but it's not a big drawback since the target would be taken by surprise most of the time.
Max range would be increased to what 250km?
Sure, you can probably do that. In fact with a Mach 2 release and a VFDR sustain-all-the-way motor you can probably achieve a >300km range. The problem then is that you'll end up with a missile which you CANNOT use in over 90% of the aircraft's flight envelope, takes the first 50~60km to accelerate to it's cruising speed and practically cannot be used by other aircrafts. |
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geogen
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 07:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 11, 2008
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| I say go for it... You're saying the F-22 is just another aircraft?? I could deserve something just for it, given the immense superiority and $300 billion total price tag so far? What's another $750 million to double it's BVR lethality? |
_________________ The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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Viperalltheway
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 03:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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The F-22 program has not cost 300 billion it has cost around 50 billion.
Like dwightlooi said, such a missile could not be used in 90% of the flight enveloppe. However 2 versions of FMRAAM could be developped, one "general purpose" for all the other fighters and one extra long lange for the F-22. The F-22 could carry a mix of the two, just to be sure it always has something to launch. The R&D cost of a second version would be low since it would be basically the same missile but with a different fuel ratio. |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 03:52 PM
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Viperalltheway wrote:
The F-22 program has not cost 300 billion it has cost around 50 billion.
Like dwightlooi said, such a long could not be used in 90% of the flight enveloppe. However 2 versions of FMRAAM could be developped, one "general purpose" for all the other fighters and one extra long lange for the F-22. The F-22 could carry a mix of the two, just to be sure it always has something to launch. The R&D cost of a second version would be low since it would be basically the same missile but with a different fuel ratio.
Actually, it'll need a completely different motor (physically) as the interstage, intake flaps and combustor will all be different.
Nonetheless, the point was that even if a Raptor CAN cruise at Mach 1.7 and presumably accelerate to Mach 2 to release this special weapon, it'll be a weapon which the Raptor cannot fire when it is caught at a lower speed or prefers to launch at a lower speed and break away.
If we want to live with strict operational restrictions in exchange for range, we can simply stack an AMRAAM front end on an ESSM 10" booster. Fire the thing at 60,000 feet in a 60 degree ballistic trajectory and have the missile experience nearly no drag for a good portion of its flight at the edge of space. The missile will then dive down 100~200km away on the target at Mach 6~7. This missile can of course be used low and slow, it just won't have a 200km range. Air-to-air ballistic missile if you will... |
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Viperalltheway
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 05:55 PM
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Veteran

Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 433
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That sounds like a good idea, even though I'm not not sure that 6 could be carried internally. Correct me if I'm wrong but the AIM-120Cs are carried in diagonal to be able to fit 3 per bay. I don't think you could do that with the ESSM.
If it's not possible for sure a mixed configuration could be used, like 2 ESSMs in one bay and 3 AMRAAMs in the other to have more BVR shots. |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 11:29 PM
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Viperalltheway wrote:
That sounds like a good idea, even though I'm not not sure that 6 could be carried internally. Correct me if I'm wrong but the AIM-120Cs are carried in diagonal to be able to fit 3 per bay. I don't think you could do that with the ESSM.
If it's not possible for sure a mixed configuration could be used, like 2 ESSMs in one bay and 3 AMRAAMs in the other to have more BVR shots.
Actually, 6 will fit in the bay even WITHOUT staggering, although they probably cannot be launched with the LAU-142/A AMRAAM ejector because this will be an ~550 lbs weapon (almost twice as heavy as an AMRAAM).
The AMRAAM occupies a 12.5" box section despite its 7" body because of the fins. When you stagger them, three of these occupy a cross sectional span of 2.75+7+2.75+7+2.75+7+2.75 = 32". That is not counting about ~2 inches of additional clearance allowance for a total of ~34" in the F-22's bay.
The ESSM occupies a 10" box section each. The strakes do not extend past the body span. The fins in the back fold into the same 10" box. This is necessary for the missile to fit into quad packs that go into those 21" Mk41 VLS cells. In short, three ESSM side by side occupies LESS space laterally than three AMRAAMs side-by-side in a staggered fashion -- about 2" less space at a total of 30".
The ESSM is 3.66m long. The AMRAAM is 3.65m long. They are practically the same length, so no length issues either.

http://www.raytheon.com/products/stelle ... 055809.pdf |
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Viperalltheway
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Posted: Mar 30, 2008 - 01:35 AM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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That sounds almost perfect. The missile is heavier but it's very acceptable. It would have roughly the same range as a phoenix but at half the weight.
They could even modify the 4 missile canister to make it stealthy for external carriage. Each pylon is rated at 5000 lbs so it's well enough. The canister and the pylon could be jettisoned when empty to reduce RCS and drag. |
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dwightlooi
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Posted: Mar 30, 2008 - 05:06 AM
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Joined: Aug 02, 2006
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Viperalltheway wrote:
That sounds almost perfect. The missile is heavier but it's very acceptable. It would have roughly the same range as a phoenix but at half the weight.
They could even modify the 4 missile canister to make it stealthy for external carriage. Each pylon is rated at 5000 lbs so it's well enough. The canister and the pylon could be jettisoned when empty to reduce RCS and drag.
No, it won't have the same range as the Phoenix. I'll have a higher propellant fraction and probably lower drag, hence better performance. I just started a thread pertaining to the performance estimates of such a solution in the F-22 section (it's more appropriate there).
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10195.html
If fired at Mach 2 at high altitudes, you are looking at roughly a Mach 7.2+ missile with about twice the kinetic energy as the Phoenix -- there is some math to justify it, go check it out that thread if you are interested. Remember, the ESSM already gets to Mach 4+ when fired at essentially zero speed (30 knots doesn't count) and up from sea level. |
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geogen
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Posted: Mar 30, 2008 - 06:35 AM
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Very interesting, thanks. My interest is to always encourage and foster 'outside the box' thinking, so this concept is right on target as to what was my initial intent.
Dwight, you are a genius with some of your ideas man, including such an hypthetical, 200km diving ESSM/AMRAAM hybrid. I've seen you at the Stratpage discussions as well..
Viperall, interesting external/jettisoned BVR missile mount concept too. That is how I envisioned the AAM/SM-6 concept for F-15 forinstance - jettisoning the pylon if possible.
I still propose the AAM/SM-6 concept as a dominant 500+ Km intercept option, especially coupled with secondary AMRAAM/ESSM ordnance. Perhaps, such a long range (bomber/refueler/AWACS intercept) missile could be armed on AWACS themselves and B-1B interceptors?
As for this F-35 topic, I would wholly encourage R&D into external, LO, jettisoned weapon pylons for similar stand-off/BVR ordnance. Hence to multiply the effect of fewer F-35s. |
_________________ The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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