Forum: F-22A Raptor

Bunch went to Hill....y'all didn't have CCIP before the stand down, correct? I'm sure it went there for the mod, and a bunch stayed there. I swear I saw something about it being with the 419th.....Henrik tracks all that stuff, LOL! I'll run 'er down. Italy a little better than Clovis? Very Happy

I spent a week in Clovis one day!

F-16.net Sponsor

oh yeah but i had more fun in korea than i here. i travel a lot. not to fond of italy. love to go to austria and germany. been to romania couple of times. lots of hot women there. i appreciate you looking that up for me. i dont think they had the mod. havent been there since feb 07. we just gort 2 jets here form the 524. 2096 and 0510.

Last edited by F16guy on Mar 24, 2008 - 08:00 AM; edited 2 times in total

DCC89-2083 wrote: depended on what the intel was about. performance yes. the way it flies yes. the way it is supposed to work no.

Let me preference with saying I honestly believe the MX guys are underpaid for the fantastic job they do keeping the pilots flying the jets that are getting too old. But...I have to disagree with your statement. The Pilot knows exactly how the system is supposed to operate. Pilots learn indepth about the systems and what they do so that they can manage emergencies in the air. It would be very bad to lose a hydraulic system in the air and not know what other systems were impacted. You're assumption that since maintenance fixes the jet makes the maintainer the only one that knows how the system works and that the crew chief knows the classified information about it is not correct.
First off most of the DCC's involvement with the jet does not involve working with the classified systems (please let me know if I'm mistaken because I also need to learn more). Hydraulic system operation and how to fix that system is not classified. Neither are oil levels, refueling a jet, changing tires and the host of other duties that DCC's do. LO coatings are a different example, requiring special training to fix and repair and I don't want to discuss them here other than to tell me if the DCC's does the repairs and not sheet metal technicians. Even then the pilot knows how the coating is supposed to do its job.
Most of the classified information resides in the black boxes. So the pointy heads should know the most by your reasoning. While fixing most black boxes is a remove and replace, send the box back to depot for fixes, I'd be surprised if a requirement for fixing/replacing that part meant a class on learning how the system worked in combat. (Again let me know if I'm out to left field).
Let me know if you know the different modes of the radar, electronic warfare detection and attack systems, the stores management systems, General Avionics computer, Link system, IFF, and a host of other electronic systems in the jet. I'm not talking which steps of the fault tree to follow from the TO, or that the white wire plugs into socket A, that Blk 40's take a lot less time to change out a LEF than a Blk 30 because hinge design, or that you need a flight data recorder in the jet to run a CADC,ADC,pneumatic sensor flight check or it will fail the test. Pilots don't need to know how to fix the system just how to operate it, what it is designed to do, and what to do if the component fails.
If I'm out of line here let me know but I don't think most of the knowledge about fixing most Crew Chief items is classified. It is the operation of the systems and how they work together that is. Pilots do Know How the Systems Work. Oh and by the way a good number of pilots have actually had courses in aviation and the components associated with making them fly. Thermodynamics, Advanced Aerodynamics, and Electrical Engineering were all course I took on my way to becoming a pilot.
Second to last thing that I want to say is I can't thank the maintainers enough for fixing the jets. You guys are great and for the most part under appreciated. My hats off to anyone who fixes jets and lets some flight suit insert/stick actuator walk up with a salute and take your pride and joy out for a spin hoping it comes back and Code 1.
Everyone should understand the net, this website is a place for expressing opinions. Hence my post. Without this forum we'd all have to spend these hours infront of the keyboard in some other pursuit trying to get other people to listen to our ideas and opinions. Clown Shoes is entitled to his opinion and so is ABDecals Scott. They have both had good posts in the past and have added to every ones knowledge on this forum. We aren't going to agree on everything otherwise this would be boring.
I just spent some time in with a guy in Dozer's squadron. Dozer is still the Squadron CC. He's doing a great job and this is episode is really just a blip on the radar. I for one read the PP slides and thought wow if OSI is sending this out it must be serious. I was most concerned about how this was sent out. If the Air Force had wanted it disseminated it would have done it through a formal means and not though a mass email. It would have been posted on the AF portal or ADLS website as mandatory training, something more official. They way it was spread was not professional or official.

It is great to find out it is really much ado about nothing

DCC89-2083 wrote:

i am a crew chief and i am pretty sure that i have never had a pilot know more about a hyd system and eng sys than any crew chief unless he was a proir enlisted crew chief. im sorry but i highly, with every ounce of my being, doubt that a pilot would know more about how to go about fixing and maintaining a jet than a maintainer. just wont happen. i will say it again maintainers know how to keep that jet in the air more than pilots. that is our job. your job is to fly our job is to put you in the air. there is no getting around that. that is what we specialize in. ACFT MAINTAINENCE!!!

Trust me dude, those pilots know way more than us maintainers about that jet. Yes we know how to change parts and keep that jet FMC, but as far as how the jet is actually supposed to be used in the air, we have little to no idea. There are a lot of things pilots do once they get in the cockpit that you or I will never be cleared to see that makes that jet do what it does. I am not trying to bash any career field over another, but knowing how to service hydraulics or fix the engine isn't really grounds to say that you know more than the pilot about the jet. Like I said, we may know how to keep the jet ready for the pilot to use, but beyond swapping parts, we have no idea. Especially on the Raptor. I haven't worked it for very long, but I can assure you that each and every pilot knows WAY more than us about that jet and how it is supposed to work. Obviously I'm talking about the "good" pilots here. Grantid there are still some out there that make you wonder how they got into flight school and that new mosquito striper in your unit knows more about the jet than him. So to some it up, we know how to fix it, they know how to use it.

Well, that's what I was trying to say....badly, LOL!

You are right, in terms of the affect to Dozer's career, this is probably nothing, though to be fair there just isn't any way of telling. If he makes general and gets a wing, I guess we'll know then. The concern was, at least to me, that the only thing that will be remembered is that "some F-22 guy leaked a bunch of classified stuff on the web" since the bashing was gratuitous and thus far the retractions have been....lacking. It just made me sad to see people immediately jump on the "that guy's an idiot" wagon, when if there was ever a dude who deserved the benefit of the doubt, its this guy.

And, again, crew chiefs rock!

How'd the auction go? I'm looking at weather forecasts for Fairbanks in April....HOLY CRAP!!! It was 78 here in Houston today.

...lacking? Hell I haven't read one!!! It sure is funny how some are REAL quick to criticize but when proven wrong theres either alot smoke blown to cover their wrong doing or crickets. Cowardly would be the correct term I think, possibly no integrity might be another term that could be used. What do I know tho, I'm just a wrench.

AfterburnerDecalsScott wrote:

Well, that's what I was trying to say....badly, LOL!

You are right, in terms of the affect to Dozer's career, this is probably nothing, though to be fair there just isn't any way of telling. If he makes general and gets a wing, I guess we'll know then. The concern was, at least to me, that the only thing that will be remembered is that "some F-22 guy leaked a bunch of classified stuff on the web" since the bashing was gratuitous and thus far the retractions have been....lacking. It just made me sad to see people immediately jump on the "that guy's an idiot" wagon, when if there was ever a dude who deserved the benefit of the doubt, its this guy.

And, again, crew chiefs rock!

How'd the auction go? I'm looking at weather forecasts for Fairbanks in April....HOLY CRAP!!! It was 78 here in Houston today.

I got the jet I wanted 86-0282. It was my first assigned C model tail in 1997. I just got back from Arctic Survival and thank goodness it wasn't really cold, it only got to -15 or so. Some guys have been out when it was -40 and lower. 78 sounds nice. It is almost up to 20 here.

shadowruse wrote:

...lacking? Hell I haven't read one!!! It sure is funny how some are REAL quick to criticize but when proven wrong theres either alot smoke blown to cover their wrong doing or crickets. Cowardly would be the correct term I think, possibly no integrity might be another term that could be used. What do I know tho, I'm just a wrench.

They also tend to be a$$ covering, "not my fault", don't-take-personal-responsibility, skate-out-3/4s-the-way-through-the-day types as well.

DCC89-2083 wrote:

i dont think he knows the most about the jet though. i would have to say that the maintainers that put the jet in the air everyday so that he can do his air dog and pony show would be the ones who know the most about the jet. he knows some of the technicals and how to fly it but going to basic operations about systems i dont know. he very well could but i dont know. i saw the power point on all this and i will tell you if a general of any rank came to me and told me to talk about the jet the way it was talked about i would have talked to legal about it first. i am not trying to bash the guy. that is not my intension. i have no ill will towards him at all. just giving a little insight about different ways it could have been handled. Shrug

No offense, but you could not be more wrong here. Do you honestly think that a crew chief knows more about the combat capabilities of a jet than a Lt. Col who flies and fights with it? There is absolutely no way...and I was an ECM avionics tech in the USAF.

[/quote]because the result might very well be that he decides to pack it in....I know I'd be thinking seriously about it......you imagine what he's worth in the private sector?

Quote:

If I was the noobiest noob F-22 pilot nugget new-guy in the squadron I'd never quit no matter how much S*%T was thrown at me. They'd have to put me in jail and snap the key off in the lock before I'd miss my next sortie! Very Happy

biffbutkus wrote:

DCC89-2083 wrote:

i dont think he knows the most about the jet though. i would have to say that the maintainers that put the jet in the air everyday so that he can do his air dog and pony show would be the ones who know the most about the jet. he knows some of the technicals and how to fly it but going to basic operations about systems i dont know. he very well could but i dont know. i saw the power point on all this and i will tell you if a general of any rank came to me and told me to talk about the jet the way it was talked about i would have talked to legal about it first. i am not trying to bash the guy. that is not my intension. i have no ill will towards him at all. just giving a little insight about different ways it could have been handled. Shrug

No offense, but you could not be more wrong here. Do you honestly think that a crew chief knows more about the combat capabilities of a jet than a Lt. Col who flies and fights with it? There is absolutely no way...and I was an ECM avionics tech in the USAF.

Thats what I was trying to tell him Smile

first off i never in any of my posts said that it was just crew chiefs. i said maintainers. pretty sure that means everyone who works on the jet, and reference to just swapping a motor and servicing the jet i am pretty sure a crew chief does a lot more than that. pretty sure that is why our names are on the other side of the canopy. i know that pilots know the principle theory of the systems and how they work. when i was talking about maitainers knowing more is that they know how to fix what components do what and how they work together in making the system work. i mean i have never met a pilot who knew exactly indepth how the hydraulic system works or any other system. they knew the princple theory on how it worked but not every last component and its job. i have nothin but respect for pilots so i am not trying to bash them. why would i they keep me employed just like i keep them employed. why would i want to hate them. so many people on here to jump the gun on thinking that i am talking about just cc' s when i say maintainers but in all i was talking about everyone who turns a wrench on that jet to put it in the air. read before you jump to conclusions. might help your cause a bit. oh and if you dont think that you knew more about your systems than a pilot and how they worked that just tells you how much dedication you took into learning your job and being the best in what you do. i pride myself in knowing everything i can about the aircraft and how it works. that is my job and i do it proudly.

Copy, and again thanks for your dedication and hard work, the USAF needs more like you.

But I don't think I jumped the gun. Relook at your post:

Quote:

i dont think he knows the most about the jet though. i would have to say that the maintainers that put the jet in the air everyday so that he can do his air dog and pony show would be the ones who know the most about the jet. he knows some of the technicals and how to fly it but going to basic operations about systems i dont know.

and

Quote:

depended on what the intel was about. performance yes. the way it flies yes. the way it is supposed to work no

Sure sounded like you were saying that pilots don't know about the jet or the systems. Now, I'll be the first to admit, is not my job to know how to fix the jet, or to know all of the many parts and pieces that are used to build a hydraulic pump. That as you said is your job.
If I had to do that then I would not have time to do all of the things I have to do to operate and then employ the jet. But hopefully you'll see, that while pilots don't build(most of the time) and repair the things in the jet, Pilots have to know how it is supposed to operate and how to use it, and what to do if it doesn't operate. You get paid the big bucks to fix what the pilot breaks and get it ready for the next flight.
Another comment. I know you don't hate pilots, well at least I hope you don't, pilots lives depend on you. Never meant to infer that. Just hopefully let you know we know a whole lot about the jet (some don't, but they usually don't last to long flying). I think we just have a different definition of "knowing how it works". I'd say most of the questions directed to Dozer were on how the jet works while flying its mission, not necessarily how to fix or build the components.

You came across as sounding like Dozer was not the authority on the Jet, that he infact is, and overall pilots are not knowledgeable about the systems on the jet. I see now you were talking about repairing the jet.

Again thanks and I hope your enjoying Italy. Wish I could have been stationed there.

F16GUY yeah sorry i sometimes dont elaborate or say what i am trying to say in the right words. i know it is a problem.
i wasnt trying to say that about dozer at all. he is one of the individuals on the for front of the news and greatest jet that world has ever seen. and no i dont hate pilots at all. i still talk with the first pilot that i ever had at cannon. god love yall. yall do great things in the jets. i know that yall know a thing or two about the jets.
i wish i made the big bucks. that would be really nice. glad that we are on the same page now. Cheers

F16guy wrote:

...You get paid the big bucks to fix what the pilot breaks and get it ready for the next flight....

Yes we do

Quote:

Pilots without maintainers are just pedestrians in cool leather jackets and sunglasses

Sorry couldn't resist trying to break the tension. Laughing

I agree with F16guy here, we maintenance folks know many of the "nuts and bolts" of our specific systems, and how they interact with some other systems, but when it comes to employment, that's the pilot's department. Most pilots (and crew chiefs) don't know how engine carbon-seals work, how many fuel-nozzles are in their engine, or what engine parameter combinations trigger a stall event in the engine's fault-logic; but again that's why engine mechanics are paid well..... Wink

Pilots can't be a "Jack-of-all-trades" with a complicated system like an entire fighter jet. (Neither can crew chiefs) If they could there wouldn't be dozens of maintenance folks for each pilot (so to speak) or maintenance per flight hour studies. We have many specialties for our systems because they demand that high-level of detailed knowledge. Operation/employment is the end result of all that knowledge, and does tend to be the key to the system as a whole.

So...
If a tree falls in the woods and no-one is there to hear it does it make a sound?
Is like..
If a loaded F-16 sits on the ramp and no one is there to fly the mission is it FMC?

CC's don't take this too personal, I was only using you as a comparison Cheers

After all, it's great it's fun watching you try to safety-wire! LMAO

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Crow is kinda bitter tasting...