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I have a question about what is considered a kill? If two countries' (NOTE) aircraft engage in aerial sparring/combat and during hard maneuvering, one aircraft losses control and crashes... is that considered a kill?

NOTE: Countries such as USA-USSR, Greece-Turkey, Israel-Syria, etc.

Adrian

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Elite 2K Joined: Oct 20, 2005 Posts: 2092 Status: Offline

Are you talking about historic dogfights? Or are you talking about current air-to-ground missions like in Iraq or Afghanistan? Yes, there were some F-16 crashes, but not related to enemy ground forces.

I was wwtaching on the History Channel, a few days ago, a show called dog figth, different wars and country and they count those inducted crashes as a kill.

I think if you are a pilot and over maneuver your opponent and make him or her crash, you win, that´s a kill for me (especially if the other pilot is dead Devil

)

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2600 Status: Offline

Take it easy FRANCIS.

"If any of you HOMOS try to touch me...I'll kill ya." Laughing

Anyway, yes, maneuvering another aircraft into the dirt counts as a kill. On the Swing Wing thread, I recently referenced the EF crew in ODS that did just that. An Iraqi Mirage F.1 augered in trying to get low and fast with the Spark Vark. The EF had TFR, the Mirage didn't. In pitch darkness, it didn't work out for the Mirage driver.

I know an Eagle Driver, Caesar "Rico" Rodriguez, who got a kill like that in ODS against a MiG-29. The Fulcrum pilot tried to hang with the Eagle, and Rico forced him to Split S into the ground. No Shot, One Kill.

Losses to AAA and SAMs are counted under a different category. The truest definition of an AA kill would be a shot or maneuver, which causes the adversary aircraft to cease controlled flight. Kill Stars are NOT "Chow Hall Medals". You have to earn them.

I thought i remembered hearing something about F-15E's dropping bombs on Iraqi aircraft as they took off during ODS. Can anybody else back this up for me or am i just making this up in my head since it's been forever ago since i've heard that.

TC nice use of a Stripes quote

There was a Beagle that dropped a 2,000 lb (?) bomb on a Mi-24 Hind, but I dont know about aircraft taking off.

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 43

Does USAF officially credit kills (= destroyed aircraft) or victories (= damaged and destoyed planes)? "Kill" has a harsh sound on it and you get more credits if you paint victories on your fuselage Smile

For example on WW2, every allied pilot were credited with victories, not kills.

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2600 Status: Offline

Kills...Victories...you say ToMAYto, I say...

Actually, I believe the appropriate term is indeed "Aerial Victory", but what is said on paper, and what is said in the squadron bar usually aren't the same.

Yeah- such as kill ratios. Wink

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2600 Status: Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

There was a Beagle that dropped a 2,000 lb (?) bomb on a Mi-24 Hind, but I dont know about aircraft taking off.

It was indeed a 2000 pounder, a GBU-10, and the Mi-24 was off of the ground. IIRC, the WSO waited until the chopper took off to pickle the bomb. The pilot was about to select a 'winder, when they saw the chopper explode. D@mn good shot, and so what would've been a bomb mark, turned into a kill star, because it happened in the air.

An F-105 got a similar kill against a MiG-17 in Vietnam, when the Thud Driver dropped a MER full of bombs on top of the MiG, which had flown under him. The board at first was not going to award the pilot an official kill for it, but they were eventually pressured into officially crediting him. Perhaps Gums, or Snake, one of our resident MiG killers, has some more info on that one.

No disrespect intended, but are you sure about that?

I believe there were 27 MiG-17s downed by the different versions of the F-105, all reportedly scored by their M61 20mm cannons. Those are the only ones credited to them during Vietnam. Perhaps it was another type of aircraft you were thinking of?

What about friendly fire kills, (there's no such thing as "friendly fire" bro') like the one PAF F-16 in the 80's, blue on blue is considered a kill? or FAV F-16 vs Bronco in Venezuela during 1992 coup, even if both aircrafts belonged to the same AF.

Air collisions are a different thing, so I'm not counting the Eagle vs Viper in Alaska awhile ago or the IAF Baz kill w/right wing over the Skyhawk (even if some people count it as a kill)

This was a topic near and dear to us during ODS. Us being the 37th TW (F-117). While bombing Tahil AB one night our intrepid Stealth pilot shagged a MiG-29 taxing in to park.

They sent it to 12th Air Force and the official ruling was:

"Any aircraft destroyed by any means while moving under it's own power in the air or on the ground is judged to be a kill."

"Jonesy", the DCC for the aircraft in question was really excited about it. He proudly painted a red star under the canopy rail. I pointed out that as strange as it might seem the Russians were our allies in this conflict and to remove the star before someone sees it.

The next night there was a camel in it's place. I reminded them that we do not take credit for killing non-combatants (in public) and take the camel off.

In desperation he asked for suggestions and I told him to paint an Iraqi flag with MiG-29 underneath it.

Third night. He had got the colors mixed up and had painted a Saudi flag instead.

Fourth night I made a MiG-29 silouette for him and that's what stayed.

Unfortunately, there is no known picture of it. If anyone has one, please PM. I was NCOIC of the mission marks and painted all of them for blue section.
How I got the job is another amusing story for another time. I know that it sported the kill when they had the big homecoing at Nellis AFB and alot of pictures were taken that day.

Thanx guys for your input. I was referring to the unfriendly sparring, that goes on between Turkish and Greek Air Forces. There have been a couple of crashes after such encounters, in fact there is a video on You Tube showing the crash into the Aegian Sea of an F-16.

As far as the F-15E kill of the IrAF Mi-24, I read on ACIG that the USAF recognized back 2005 that effort by the WSO as a kill. According to their records at;
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_217.shtml
They list a GBU-10 killed a Hughes 500 helicopter.

Adrian

*A little off topic*
What constitutes a kill being the topic, I've seen lots of kill markings, stars, guns, flags, aircraft silhouettes, roundels, but what a Camel Marking kill stands for? (Enviromentalists will be pissed if the AF managed to shoot/bomb/kill a camel)

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What consitutes a Kill?